The day after - what do you say?



ORIGINAL POST
Posted by cookie09 15 yrs ago
if she is professional, then shut up and behave normal as you did before.

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COMMENTS
housed 15 yrs ago
She may very well be professional (whatever that means) but since you have clearly ventured into the personal with her, I don't think that in itself will save the situation. To be honest, I think there is very little chance (unless she is not attracted to you and this was just a drunken moment for her as well) that things will remain unchanged between you two.


So why not just bite the bullet and just tell her what you posted - that you like and respect her very much and hope she's okay and that nothing will change between you. (Of course things has changed, and irrevocably so, but you can still say it. If nothing, simply to drive the point home that you don't want it to happen again.) And whatever you do, do NOT send flowers.

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Sensei 15 yrs ago
Interesting. You wrote this without a single mention of your wife other than "the problem is that I am married." Your marrage and wife is a problem? Then end it. If you don't, you are lying to youself and to this "years older than me,very attractive and very professional and also single" woman. You sound confused, unfaithful and basically you are a cheat and a scoundrel. You suck right now and so will your relationships because you have no morals or backbone. If you don't get it together you will live a life of misery and suffering. What you need is some serious soul searching, not dipping your willy. Get it together! Good luck.

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ziggity 15 yrs ago
I agree, having been in a similar situation - unwittingly as the single one. Do NOT send flowers, do NOT get drunk around her without your wife there if it is going to be a problem. Tell her what you said in your post and try and act like it never happened. At home though you may need to sort out the situation. The guy I slept with has sorted out his marriage and they seem to be going strong now, and while we still get on well and hang out in a group occassionally nothing would ever happen again... that's the place you need to get to. Or get divorced. Until I met this guy I really thought all men who cheated were bastards, but actually he was just increadibly lonely and a good guy who really messed up and knows it. Either way, good luck, it sounds like you need it.

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cookie09 15 yrs ago
iwilltry, maybe some people just focus on the questions asked and leave the moralizing part to people like you ;-)


seriously, not everone's wedding vow includes monogamy so we should not apply our own standards of a marriage to other people

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CaptDave 15 yrs ago
FACT : 30% of the men who get paternity tests in the UK find out the kid is not theirs ... Now, obviously that is a biased sample frame, but the reality is a large number of both men and women carry on all the time... The purpose of this forum is not to moralize, but to give people helpful advice.

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sicn 15 yrs ago
The higher you fly in the lustful bliss, the heavier you fall by the gravity of shame.

(See attached link: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/25/sanford-scandal-latest-blow-republicans/)

But you can always have a way to deal with that. By having no shame.



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cougar88 15 yrs ago
Deal with it. You seem more concerned about the woman you slept with (e.g. send flowers?) than the pain and betrayal you have for your wife.


The other woman, as you say, is smart and professional. Let her deal with the fall out herself. She is not naive. Both of you should have known better.

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xmauix 15 yrs ago
"You seem more concerned about the woman you slept with (e.g. send flowers?) than the pain and betrayal you have for your wife."



--- exactly! I wonder if you've ever sent flowers to your wife... How awful it'll make your wife feel if she finds out about this! I'm a wife myself and seeing you write something like this makes me feel so bad for your wife.

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rasbro 15 yrs ago
sounds like people enjoy moralizing and imposing their own views on life and marriage more than trying to give advice and answering the question you ask.

i assume you know how you need to deal with this situation with your wife, therefore have not asked. now on to this other woman.


pretending it never happened is a good option if you want to leave things ambiguous and keep things open for future drunken encoutners.


if you do want to end it and try to prevent it in the future, talk to her over coffee. tell her your reasons for wanting to end it, or not. have some respect for her intelligence and feelings, she is probably feeling similar to you, wondering where that leaves you. have it out. one way or the other.

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bastille 15 yrs ago
You say - I hope she is okay and that I hope nothing has changed between us - but you are joking right - of course things have changed and can only get better in one relationship and worse in another - DECISION TIME and make it quick.

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JONAC 15 yrs ago
Stop fxxxin around and being innocent...

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Glowac106 15 yrs ago
You have chosen to post it in a public forum, so expect all kinds of responses. Good advices have been provided to you by some of the folks here like "housed" & "Ziggity". I am wondering if you will follow the advice or behave in a total different mannar?

I have seen many others that they know exactly what is the right thing to do but guess what end up doing the opposit and messing up their life.


Good luck!

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magnolia_khan 15 yrs ago
Well, consider those unwanted advice. Though I guess you could really use some.

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Sensei 15 yrs ago
This discussion, whether you want it to or not, is intertwined with morals. The main one would be honesty. It is easy to say, “Don’t bring morals into this query.” Yet, how many of us live completely without morals or values? Are you willing to honestly say that you don’t apply your own set of values or morals to your daily interactions with other people? I think not.


Vendage will continue in this dilemma, and then new ones, unless he is able to understand his own values and other’s perceptions of those values. I think what he has done is scandalous and I don’t want anyone reading this to think all men think or behave like this. (I am a male.) In my view, when you commit, you commit 100%. There is no try. I apply this value to myself and encourage others to do the same.


Perhaps some of you married men think that marriage is not a commitment to monogamy and that is your right, but did you explain your position to your betrothed before you said “I do.”? If not, have you informed her since? Now, please don’t lie to this forum or yourself. And please don’t condone lying to spouses or others in this forum. It is indecent and cowardly. For any of you cheating on your wives, I challenge you now to face her and tell her exactly what you have been up to. Any takers? Think about it. Could you, would you or would you even want to do that?


(Single men are exempt from these questions and may not wish to contemplate the commitment of marriage, but now is a good time to ponder your own abilities in this endeavor.) Decent, honest women, who take their matrimonial obligations seriously, deserve a honest, decent man.


To Vendage. I came down hard on you...on purpose. I see that you have not replied. Do you want to be decent and honest or do you want to be what many consider a scoundrel? I hope you are thinking and soul-searching. Define your priorities, and then step forward. Step, then punch. Until you: a) resolve your domestic situation with your wife, your “problem”, or b) dissolve your marriage, you cannot move forward.


Good luck,

Sensei


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cookie09 15 yrs ago
brilliant! go for it sensei, i think you are not done yet ;-)

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ziggity 15 yrs ago
Sensei,

So you think he shoul tell his wife? I don't. I agree with you on the 100% commitment, but if he decides that he made a really stupid mistake and that he wants to sort out whatever the situation is with his wife - then telling her for one mistake is not going to do anything except make him feel better for being honest. If it never ever happens again with this lady or any others then I don't think he should tell his wife, but really work on his marriage. If things are wrong and they need working through then it is terrible timing to drop this bombshell on his wife. It will likely destroy her. How is that kind, just to make himself feel better. It could ruin any hope of resurrecting the marriage. How can you say that she would want to know if it was a one time mistake and never to be repeated... I wouldn't personally. I know you will disagree, but sometimes total honesty is simply selfish.


If he ever has an affair again then well then it's a whole different ball game and he needs to tell her in my opinion.


Either way, it isn't your or my opinion that matters in this case, just his.

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Sensei 15 yrs ago
To cookie09:

Indeed. Done I am not. For this issue examines deep insights into human sexual behavior. And let’s face it. We’re all interested in the sexual behaviors of our species. As I try to be objective, I cannot. I must be at some times subjective.


To ziggity: You may be focused on the “outer layer” of the onion. And I don’t disagree with you. You are right; his is the most important opinion that matters now because he first laid it out and it is his situation to resolve. I did not recommend in my previous post that Verage tell his wife of his transgressions. Rather, I suggested that he be honest with himself. If he wants to save his marriage, then only he knows if this situation requires candidness or discression. My core recommendation was that we all be honest with ourselves.


So, if he wants booty on the side, the least he can do is be honest with himself and relent that’s he is unsatisfied with his current situation and seeks to tag some a** on the down low. If he wants to save his marriage, well then I think a marriage consoler is in order.


My supposition is this: Follow your heart and your love. If there is reason to abandon your marriage, then do so and seek a new love. ( DV, lack of love, exc.) But it has got to be a damn good reason.


But if you have love and honesty, cherish it! For example, maybe you have a good wife, ( and please, all men stop and consider if you have a good wife, cause there’s lots out there). A loving family is the next best thing to a kick a** dojo. Step, punch. Find, love.


Good luck,

Sensei

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foxmulder 15 yrs ago
Good stuff Sensei and Flashback (as always - they should retain you as resident agony aunt). No, don't "confess all" to your wife. It will only hurt her and damage your relationship - probably irreparably. Would she ever trust you again? Should she? Would you if the tables were turned? You will just have to suffer the guilt on your own. As to the "other woman", first, make a decision whether you are going to stray again ("possibly" means "yes") and, if so, whether it will be with her, given the chance. Don't pretend it didn't happen. If you don't respect your wife, at least respect her. If you do have the backbone to stick to monogamy, speak with the other woman (and, please, don't refer to her as "that woman" - a la Clinton - that was definitely his undoing) and say that you don't think it a good idea to repeat the encounter. So, face the music and dance. Or not......

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CaptDave 15 yrs ago
Folks, a lot of sound moral advice, not sure if Vendage is any closer to solving his problem.


Please check out this thread... there is a raging debate on the morality of being a wife versus working in a night club.... it needs a bit of moral guidance.


http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/marriage-relationships/threads/127040/hostess-bars-in-china-and-what-really-goes-on/

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rasbro 15 yrs ago
sensei and others, where does it state in the vows of marriage that you will be monogamous? nothing i ever signed or said during the marriage ceremony or posting of documents to city hall state "you shall be monogamous". perhaps it is implied or even believed by one or both parties but it is hardly written in ink anywhere i can recall? again, it is people putting their moral views on an institution. monogamy in marriage is a cultural concept and varies greatly from culture to culture.

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punter 15 yrs ago
Why can a spouse accuse a partner of bigamy and get conviction? There must be something in the contract that states you can't marry twice. Does that make it okay then to have an affair because you're not marrying the other party (and thereby not commiting bigamy)?

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cookie09 15 yrs ago
"You are considered a human because its a god gifted power to recognise what's good bad, right wrong, and if you lose this basic mentality, what's the whole point of calling yourself human? "


Morals (or mores as the correct plural) are not god-given but have been proved to be developed against the environment an individual lives in. Societies develop morals for easier living among each other. As moral views (usually expressed verbally) are inherently ambiguous, law was developed to precisely describe such morals in writing and remove the ambiguity. To live by the law only would indeed not be a good compass as it would force the society to make more laws to force its citizens to follow the accepted norm (the US is a case in point here).


However the above implies that every society develops different moral views (and law!) depending on its own history and progress. Marriage is indeed an interesting flashpoint because different societies have developed different concepts - not just monogamous vs polygamous but also patriarchal vs matriarchal, man&woman vs man&woman + man/man + woman/woman, etc.


To state that one view is right or wrong in an absolute sense is clearly not helpful, and on a bigger scale has often led to wars between different parties (e.g. Christians vs Muslims in ancient times, Nazi-Germany, etc.).


So while I have very strong personal views on right and wrong and happily love to debate them, I personally refrain from telling people what is right or wrong for them - as long as that does not affect anyone else (e.g. I do not care what somebody wants to get out of his/her marriage but I do care if someone kills someone else).


ps: moral views are not only developed by humans but also by other animal societies

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cookie09 15 yrs ago
Gill,


People only kill (or do some lesser damage) in revenge if their expectations are not aligned. So I fully agree that expectations have to be aligned before any such extramarital episode happens, else it could lead to 'damage' for the person who feels betrayed.


Now of course just by not mentioning in a wedding vow that one will be faithful is not enough to align expectations. In a society like ours where marriage tends to be seen as monogamous, one has to address this point to have full alignment and not hurt anyone, which should be the basis for a successful marriage anyway.


So if someone says it's not cheating because he or she did not vow for mongamy, then of course that is b...s.... But if someone has done all that is needed and knows nobody will be hurt, then they shall please do what they like.


Now my background might differ to yours in a sense that I have traveled and worked in quite many countries so I have met plentiful of people who live in open relationships or in polygamous societies. That just made me more cautious to assume that just because someone is married, monogamy immediately follows.

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cookie09 15 yrs ago
not that law is what really matters here, but just to back you up flashback:


http://www.hklii.hk/cgi-hklii/disp.pl/hk/legis/en/ord/178/s4.html?query=~+monogamous


http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/ord/179/s2.html#adultery


so while the celebrant or the vow might not include anything exclusive, under hk law a marriage is only valid if it is to the exclusion of other parties.


that of course excludes the famous concubine :)

"adultery" (通姦) does not include sexual intercourse of a man who is a

party to a customary marriage celebrated in accordance with section 7 of the

Marriage Reform Ordinance ( Cap 178) with a concubine (tsip) lawfully taken by

him; (Added 63 of 1979 s. 2)


actually a classic example how law was established and further developed along the morals of the hk society

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julen_larsen 15 yrs ago
"The point is I really like this woman and respect her very much" too bad you can not say half of this about your wife...

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olivo08 15 yrs ago
to cookie and gill:


i think the point here is being honest, honesty with oneself and to others.


And i think sensei's views have covered this point: that if one can/dare be honest with his/her partner, without having to hide/lie about things as important as what has happened ie involved physically ( - and emotionally in this case) with a third party out of marriage.


If the answer is no, that you can't tell your parner the truth /what you have done, then something is wrong there.


Or think it the other way, would you want yourself to be treated like that ? ie being cheated on and made a fool and feeling betrayed? I think is answer is no.


What we believe, as ancient china phylosophy, - one of them, is that not to impose on others things that you yourself would not want.


So, honesty and respect. to oneself and to others.

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Boo1 15 yrs ago
My dear boy, the question one ought to be posing is not , 'what would a woman expect?'. Much more 'what should I do to make it up to my wife for being led by my d**k'. Your marriage, length of, number of progeny, does not seem to have been mentioned in this thread. Why, I wonder? Oh, of course, it's all about you.

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Sensei 15 yrs ago
I think you are simply proposing a fantasy. It does not seem real. Face the truth and face your self.

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seneca 15 yrs ago
save yourself the trouble of trying to impress her with flowers or gifts; think of yourself and buy a copy of SUGARBABE.

Read it, enjoy it and recognise yourself in one of the many descriptions 'Holly Hill'

meets - professionally.

Your eyes will open WIIIIDE!

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Cynthia9173 15 yrs ago
Instead of mulling over this........let it go and make peace with yourself and with it.


Drinking and sex go together it seems....so if you are out drinking and lose it you have to take responsibility.


So you did it and so forgive yourself. I hope your wife can too!


(Hong Kong based)

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vallient 15 yrs ago
I'd just forget about it, time will make it history, unless of course you cant keep out of the honey pot. In which case your going to need to make some decisions about what you really want.



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