hi everyone...
After 15 years of an unhappy marriage, my husband has finally realized that there isn't any chances of us being together...
We have agreed that separation/divorce is the best...
I am to move out of HK next year and not sure how to proceed. We are still living together although in separate bedrooms for over 7 years... no intimacy either for the same period...
We have one child, a son, and he will be going to study overseas as well...
Now, what to do? How to solve this situation?
Do we need a lawyer? can we do it ourselves while still living together?
Appreciate your input.
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It depends of the degree of maturity you both have. If you are smart and mature people I do not see a need for a lawyer. Depending on where (which country) did you get married you will have to follow an administrative procedure or another, but in most countries there is a "no fault marriage" law that helps for an amicable separation.
This said, is better to do the following:
1. Identify the "key elements" of the separation of goods (i.e. who gets the house, how to split the money, etc.). I personally recommend not to follow an "I want this, so what do you want" approach, but instead a mix-and-match; without specifying names, break down the posesions. For instance, say something like "whoever gets the house needs to pay X to the other person". That way there are no favouritism and much less fights.
Then, put all the agreements in writing, together with photocopies of your passports/id cards and sign each paper and on top of the passports. This gives legal strenght to those documents in case that future legal battle ensues.
As for the kid, if you both want to have it, I think the fairest way would be that the person who keeps the kid also pays for his/her expenses. If nobody wants to keep the kid, then the partner who have it should be compensated.
Good luck.
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teme
15 yrs ago
Hi, I don't know who "cowboy" is, but the name speaks for itself.
You do need a lawyer. Marriage is a legal contract. Divorce is a legal thing also.
Firstly you have to be eligble to get divorced in HK, seek advice.
Try to agree everthing between the two of you first, think about all angles long and hard. Beaware of things such as where will your child study, does he need home status for uni etc. The parent who will take care of him, if either, should be able to have him travel freely, unless he is technically an adult himself.
Good luck, talk to lots of people, remember, not everyone actually knows what they are talking about, don't believe all you are told, do your own research.
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teme - actually the cowboy was correct.
You can actually get divorced in HK without a lawyer. The reason lawyers get involved in divorces is because of non agreement on financial, asset or custody issues. If a couple have these already agreed then no lawyer needs to be involved.
But you are right, people need to do research, including yourself.
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Only the non-resident parent will pay child-support - not the parent with care.
A lawyer will almost certainly be needed. Only in marriages with no-assets and no-children is it feasible to divorce without a lawyer. That said, you do not need a lawyer for the actual dissolution of the marriage. That is fairly easy and the Court staff will assist you to fill in the forms. Only the financial settlement requires a lawyer and getting it all wrapped up in a court-stamped Consent Order including child-maintenance and alimony issues and any division of assets/property.
However, if the divorce is consensual (so much easier with less acrimony), there is nothing to stop both of you agreeing privately how to a) split assets, b) support level for your child, c) contact level between your child and the non-resident parent, d) alimony etc. Then you both show your respective lawyers what you have agreed, tweak a few things and get it stamped by the Court in a Consent Order.
It's not the dissolution of the marriage itself that normally causes the fights as often marriages have been on life-support for several years) - it is the division of assets and child contact that tends to inflame the situation.
I think you would be good candidates for Divorce Mediation rather than going down the lawyer route. A lot cheaper and in most cases less acrimonious.
Incidentally, before you do anything, give some thought as to which jurisdiction you will use for the divorce. You mention that you will leave HK. Consider also where most of the assets (property) is held.
If (and it's a big if) the settlement itself becomes contested, it will be of vital importance to you in which jurisdiction you divorce. Some jurisdictions (notably some states of the US and England and Wales) are very wife friendly. Give it some thought. Your husband may well prefer HK. Whatever you choose, make sure you register the final order in both countries.
All the best!
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sicn
15 yrs ago
desertstorm,
You NEED a lawyer no matter what. Divorce in another country with a child. It is too complicated situation. And don't think for a minutes that your counterpart is trust worthy since you loved each and have a child together for so many years blah blah blah... It is time that anything you lose will be his or her gain. YOU NEED A LAWYER to protect yourself.
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"You NEED a lawyer no matter what."
This is the perfect example of the fear that has been instilled into people nowadays. Who's laughing? Well the lawyers themselves, they have done what the set out to do - to make everyone believe that nothing can be sorted out without them. There are mediators, court orders that you are able to use as well if everything is amicable.
Here's the situation. If you are both amicable about a split, have made decisions about assets, finances and you quite clearly have a son who is able to decide for himself then remember that if you then involve a lawyer it will quite quickly get nasty and you will probably not talk for a long, long time to come. That's what lawyers do, they milk divorces for what they can even stirring emotions to make more money. They will set you against each other if they can.
Get what you can sorted and if you really need to get a lawyer to tie up the loose ends and be done.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Getting a lawyer to tie the end will not get things nasty. On the contrary, if you don't, things might get really nasty in a long run. I know a real story that a couple just did the divorce with mutural agreement without involving lawyers. Then a few years later, one party was totally suprised when he/she got served a court order that he/she was sued by the bank for the unpaid load. It turned out that someone had faked his/her signature on the bank loan right before the divorce was final.
Not involve a lawyer is blind faith which you can't afford before you two go on your own way.
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And using a lawyer for the divorce in a case of fraud would have done what?
I've seen kids have to go to hospital with panic attacks and high emotional distress after lawyers have got involved in cases. Forcing untrue allegations such as sexual abuse against the children just so that the divorce drags on and they can get more money. But, well if you think that's ok, then up to you. Me, I personally think that is disgusting and disgraceful. But horses for courses I suppose.
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I am with evildeeds on this.
In an uncontested divorce keep lawyers out of it. The majority will stir the pot and suck you dry. If the divorce is uncontested and the parties ae still talking then use a Mediator for goodness sake. Cheaper for a start and both parties tend to be happier with the agreement reached and can wrap it up in a Consent Order and get it sealed by the Court.
Divorce needs to be taken away from lawyers in 90% of cases and kept out of court. Only contested financial settlements need lawyers if there is a possibility the case will go to Court. Only a very small percentage do. Other than that, only disputed custody cases or actual/potential international parental child abduction cases need lawyers. Even these cases need specialist lawyers with specialist knowledge.
However, I can see what notaeuropean is saying (collaborative divorce in other words) but again you can use Mediators for this.
One big problem in divorce with lawyers is the matter of costs and the general principle that the respondent pays the costs. This all too often encourages the Petitioner (usually the wife) to hire an expensive lawyer and the lawyer to then drag the matter out (and send pointless correspondence to the othr side) in the full knowledge that the Petitioner will be ordered to pay the costs of the divorce. Why would the Petitioner care how much per hour the lawyer charges safe in the knowledge the bill be settled by the Respondent?
The problem is the adversarial nature of divorce. By all means make it 'collaborative' but keep it away from lawyers IMHO in 90% of all cases. Too many will suck you dry and inflame a difficult situation when emotions are already running high.
As for Legal Aid lawyers - well..... Enough said. Keep it going forever eh guys and get a nice little cheque every month from the Legal Services Commission! Just don't forget to get a costs order against the other side or make sure your client will win sufficient marital assets to pay back the funding when the case finally ends. Any Respondent against a legally-aided Petitioner may as well fly the white flag and quit.
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its pretty straight forward
DIY : if both of you are mature, SINCERE, trust each other, sensible, flexible, has time to deal with divorce procedures
Lawyers : if none of you dont match the above, or insecure, or "fair & square" oriented, or money is not a problem, can afford to drag on a few years
lawyers are human beings, it is a job to make a living. There are good ones and bad ones. If you are not knowledgeable and you put yourself to a bad professional, it is very easy to be manipulated and the matter becomes even more complicated. And worse - it is painful, emotionally and financially.
So, dont be lazy, do research no matter which option to take. I find some advices here are very practical and useful, I hope desertstorm will appreciate.
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Thank you all very much for your advices and wishes... It has been difficult as all marriage dissolutions are.
Just remember, we are not fighting... we are quite mature in every aspect.
Our son is a minor, and he is going to a boarding school in a country of which he holds a passport.
I'm intending on leaving HK as I am not happy here and all my family and most of my friends are back 'home'...
So far, we have discussed most of the aspects of the separation and are now moving into the financial part 'of who gets what'... and yes, the marriage involves 3 countries and I'll 'register' the final papers in my country.
By from what I've been reading and researching, in HK no lawyers are needed if consensus is reached in all aspects and both parts sign. It does not take many years either, just a few months actually.
Let's continue acting to promote a peaceful outcome...
Thank you all one again!
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Forgot to mention, we are both HKID permanent residents and even our son was born here...
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So at the end of the day the cowboy was right...
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Desertstorm - your penultimate post was as refreshing as any I have ever read on the misearable subject of divorce. Obviously I am very sorry to hear that you and your hubby are divorcing but how wonderful that your divorce appears to be amicable and consensual. Fantastic. I wish all divorcing spouses could be so reasonable.
My own divorce (two countries involved) has dragged on for three years without a financial settlement and looks as if it will go to a final hearing in court (overseas jurisdiction). There are other issues involved such as child contact. Ex-wife is legally represented on Legal Aid and is throwing everything at me. I have had to represent myself for the last 18 months as the fees began to bite.
Good luck to you and all the best.
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"Ex-wife is legally represented on Legal Aid and is throwing everything at me"
Sense of entitlement as they call it.
Let's this be a lesson for guys who think that a pre-nup is "unromantic".
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TXcowboy - Pre-nups are not legally-binding in some jurisdictions (such as the UK) but they can carry weight in certain circumstances (normally if both parties have taken separate legal advice prior to signing and were not coerced into signing the pre-nup). The divorce courts in UK have 'absolute discretion in financial matters regarding divorce' and have 'scope to be very creative'. In other words they can do whatever they want. If you don't like it then you can appeal. Kerrrrrrchinggg! Another cash bonanza for lawyers.
Notaeuropean - As far as I can see, a lawyer who has a legally-aided client has very little incentive to finish a case early. Firstly, legally-aided work is less well remunerated than working for private fee paying clients (no incentive to prioritise the case over more profitable private work) and secondly the lawyer is guaranteed a cheque every month from the Legal Service Commission as long as an invoice is submitted every month for work done. All the LSC want to see is that the party receiving Legal Funding has a good chance to 'win' sufficient assets to repay the legal funding (which is essentially a loan that has to be paid back). This also encourages solicitors representing a legally-adided client in divorce to go for the biggest settlement possible and to threaten Court if the Respondent does not agree. How can a legally-aided Petitioner in divorce lose? It's a great position to be in. Why not hold out for years and years to get the best possible settlement? That is why some of these cases drag on for years and years.
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Dr Strangelove, I hear you! Went through the same a few years ago. Originally had mediation and looked good, everything could have been dealt with in a few months at most until my ex heard from a friend she should have a lawyer which she got on legal aid. So got dragged on and on. After a year I told them, hey have the house, everything in it, etc and let's get done. Would have thought that was end of it, but oh no it went on for another year and a half after that. Luckily no accusations that I noted above but my eldest son started having panic attacks as he thought he'd never see me again and broke my heart to see a 6 years old hooked up to an ECG at the hospital because of some ******* lawyer. Because that's all they are.
Like you the cash out killed me, christ 750 quid and 6 weeks just to see my children. It was crazy. But then I got made redundant myself so went on legal aid too which shocked them. Ended up going to court and they accepted the original offer before we even went in the courtroom, a year and a half later. How much money did they make, and what pain and suffering did they cause? So unless there are circumstances that mean you need a lawyer avoid at all costs. It will kill finances, health, the whole lot.
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Dr. that's why you should never marry, and if you do, never to a western woman in a western country. On a separate note, a pre-nup perfectly stands in court, specially in the UK. You may need a better lawyer.
Evildeeds, a lawyer didn't send a 6yo to the ECG, your wife and her sense of entitlement did. If your wife asked you for 50% of the assets, and then she collected bills of all the expenses your kids incurn and divided those by 2, and then asked you to pay your part, would you agree?
Of course you would! But nope, ex-wives ask for as much as possible, and don't waste a second to make kids victims so they can scrap another penny...
BUT, at the end of the day, after a couple of years you are back in the game, and she is a single mother with stretch marks and a turkey neck. Money can always be made as long as you have a wink of creativity, but when women pass their 35th birthday they are gone.
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hi guys,
After reading your very sad stories, it just makes me want it to do as much as I can to avoid such harm and hurt...
I find it impressive and quite disgusting what some people do when 'divorce' is the only solution...
Call me naive, or sentimental... maybe I am! But all in all, if it is so easy to start a relationship, why not make the same effort to end it in good terms, avoiding damage to the children involved?
It is a matter of 'enlightened self-interest'
well, I'll update here as things move along....
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TXcowboy - a wealthy man should never marry a poor woman. That is for sure. Nationality does not come into it. Just make sure the parties are evenly matched financially. At all costs, avoid US and British divorce courts!
Sure, money can always be made post divorce but if your ex-spouse is not working and is aiming for a 50% share of your post tax salary post divorce it does tend to defeat the object somewhat. At the very least it encourages putting money off-shore etc. Ex-wif then gets an order to see your tax-return every year and you are stuffed and run the risk of committing perjury etc.
Evildeeds - u make your point perfectly. I can picture it now: 2 divorcing spouses sort out an amicable kitchen table divorce over coffee and at some stage a well-meaning friend recommends a trip to see a lawyer who then says "wait a minute - you don't want to accept this - I can get you more". $$$ all round. Simple, uncontestd case becomes protracted and complicated and ultimately sets the spouses at each other's throats in an adversarial process.
Desertstorm. Good for you. Yes - please keep us updated and good luck!
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Cowboy: pre-nups are not legally binding in all jurisdictions. Sorry this time you are wrong. I am totally for them conceptually but the reality is that they are just a factor taken into consideration in many countries by the courts... and no I don't need a better lawyer, and I am a woman.
Desertstorm, best of luck I am impressed with the way you are dealing with this, I hope lots of other women read this and go down this route rather than trying to ruin their husbands financially and spend years dragging out what can only be a horrible experience for all involved. Surely it is better to get a fair compromise that is a win win situation for all quickly and without hassel so that all parties can move on to bigger and better things.
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Phew, so glad I am divorced! I probably spent about 22K HKD for mine, but the ex must have spent 5 times that because a fight was what 'e was raring for!
If you are reasonable and both of yous are thinking on the same link, you should be fine without a lawyer...Gandhi was right, them folks are just bloodsuckers (or if you get the ones I did, a bunch of happy clappers who try to save marriages!!! *SMH*).
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