Posted by
delphi
15 yrs ago
In the western culture, when a woman dates a man is it normal to let the man treats for drinks and dinners or we have to go Dutch?
I don't want to embarass myself or the man when we go out... please help!
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i would say it's normal to offer to split the bill over a dinner and then have him decide whether he wants to offer to pay the whole bill. a bit of haggling and then let him pay the whole - if he chose to do so
for drinks, i would let him pay the first round and then offer to pay the second one. again if he offers to pay the second one too, haggle and then let him do it
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i prefer dutch, or at least let me pay for deserts or second round of drinks or taxi.
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Delphi,
If you are going out with the right sort of person, he will not allow you to be embarrassed. If he does something to embarrass you, maybe he is not the right person for you.
Surely the rule is, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". In Hong Kong culture, it is customary for one person to pick up the tab, in my experience. What is wrong with that?
If a man cannot live like this, what on earth is he doing in Hong Kong?
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You should offer to go dutch. If you then the polite thing to do is just split the bill down the middle (50%-50%) even if he has eaten more than you. Picking through the bill looks bad.
If he insists on paying, then you insist that next time it is your turn.
If this is a 'date' then both of you may feel a bit awkward about what you are supposed to do. And I would expect a little embarrasment on both sides. Whatever happens, remember it is not a big deal, so relax and enjoy your eveining.
Also, if it is a date, don't pick through the bill afterwards and check every item. To some people this looks impolite. A business or family dinner yes, a date no.
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beancurd, did you ever invite a guy for a date?
i think the argument, 'he invited so he pays' does not really hold solid when girls never invite a guy for a date (which is common in hk)
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Another issue is gender politics. This is a western, not eastern trend. It relates to feminism.
Some women want to pay their way. And a few would feel offended by not being allowed to exercise their independance.
Some women don't want to be 'indebted' to the man. Particulary if they decide they don't trust, feel safe, as the date develops. A very small number of men feel that they have paid up, so the woman should put out. This is very rare, but it has been noted.
There are different cultures at work here. In Chinese culture the inviter usually pays, and the man usually does the asking.
The other thing I find amusing is the Chinese charachter to argue about who pays, as in "I pay", "No! I will pay", "No! I pay", etc., etc... Which can go on for several minutes. It often goes from the table, across the restaurant floor, and can even continue at the cash register.
I am sure I have made myself look bad with Chinese associates, before I understood the ritual, with a conversation that goes like this.
Me: 'I will get this'
Them: 'No allow me'
Me: 'Well if you insist'
I am sure there have been times when I was expected to pay, but I didn't know the ritual.
There is no one answer that fits all situations.
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personally I prefer split bill, to be fair to both parties, especially if I decided I am not going to date the guy again. like tiger said, don't want to be indebted.
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Offer to split the bill, then it`s up to the other side whether he wants to pay the whole thing.
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I would rather go for Dutch.as in europe man and woman are equal,it will be nice if you offer to split the bill..
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If he invited you on the first date, he should pay. Then, as you get more aquainted and comfortable with each other, you can split the bills or alternate...
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As a man, I would pick up the bill on the first "date". However, if it were just friends hanging out, then I do not have a problem sharing the bill. It's pretty easy for me to tell what is a "date" and what is just friends hanging out - but to some, not so easy. I also would pick up the bill on subsequent dates but would like the woman to offer once in awhile to settle up. If a woman never offers to take the bill, it would put questions in my mind as to how equal our relationship will become.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
It really doesn't matter who pay the bill for a meal of two. Usually if a man minds paying the bill, he is either poor or not having good time with the lady.
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totty chaise has offered the best advice I think. Follow that and you can't go wrong.
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I would agree with most posts that a woman should offer to pay but if the guy says no, then don't put up a fight, just graciously let him get the bill. On the other hand, if you had a miserable time and don't want to see the guy again AND it was an expensive meal, then i would suggest you not offer to split the bill. This is not about principles, just some advice to save you angst.
My coworker recently went on this date where the guy went on and on about himself and then accepted her offer to pay half. It was a pretty big bill and she was definitely not interested in seeing him again (even tho he seemed keen), so needless to say, she was quite pissed off about it!
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well, i think after a first date, if you know for sure that you never want to see this guy again, you should split the bill, just don`t give them a chance to call you cheap behind your back, even it`s big bill. also like some poster said, don`t want to own anything.
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Many people have many good points which shows how difficult and intricate this topic is.
Dating - I feel it comes to expectation and not culture. If a woman is not into her date she should split or strongly offer to show she is in control and move on. If she likes him then he pays at least the first 2 or 3. As long as a woman makes the man genuinely feel special chivalry plays out. Treat someone as a sucker and you run the risk of a very uncomfortable situation. He may be a creep but not generally stupid.
Business - depends on the situation. Who needs whom the most.
Friends - This becomes difficult. Normally split the bill but do not go to s steakhouse if you are a vegetarian. I someone asks/initiates the event set the terms early. I have a friend whom invited my wife and I to dinner, invited two others, ordered a HKD 4000 bottle of Sassicaia and handed my wife the bill when she countered his initial reach for the bill. This lead to my wife and my discussion about knowing what you drink.....
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I think there is a cultural difference between Chinese & UK then. If the girl is expected to pay for her share, meaning split bill after the 3rd date, this sounds very unusual to me as a Chinese.
I would rather take turn to pay the entire bill instead of splitting a bill at the table with a guy that I am dating with.
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The post from Hoyo is so disgusting!!!! This person just doesn't has the gust to talk to the girl directly. Terrible... terrible... terrible!
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I personally really like it when a woman offers to pay half, get drinks later or take me out the next time. It makes me feel like she had a good time, wants to see me again. In my eyes it makes a woman classy rather than petty.
I was recently on an extended trip to Japan and every woman I met there asked to pay half, get the second round, or pay for the next meal/coffee/drink. I found it very refreshing.
Back in HK, I was out with a successful, well dressed woman who looked away when the bill came. It sunk what was otherwise a nice first and blind date. I would have insisted on paying anyway, but within a few minutes it turned a nice evening into a "why am I here and will I ever meet anybody again", experience.
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MJ1
15 yrs ago
Guys paying the bill is not a big deal, to me, girls who don't have the courtesy of even offering to pay half is really poor form. It's the expectation that the guy pays and playing dumb when the bill comes, which ticks me off.
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Dear All,
Its a difficult subject, but as a rule, if a man dates a woman on first date ...... then he shld have the honour of picking up the tab.......... But as a man, my experience is that you feel cheated if the date happen to be not ideal and if its an expensive event. So rule of thumb is to be on your toes on first date and try NOT to go to expensive restaurants.
Generally, asian women expect men to pay the bill ........ So all i can say is choose wisely who to date. Of course as you grow older and wiser, you will know how to deal or even smell a Loader coming on to you.
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That irks me when certain HK women call a man 'cheap' cause he doesn't throw his money away for her. I think a big reason why certain local women NEVER ask men out first is cause they are in fact too cheap. They don't even appreciate what's done for them, they just think it's their right. It's also disappointing that a lot of local women treat dating like a part time job, where they expect to get some sort of remuneration for their time. They often won't even come out unless you're taking them somewhere that allows them to get enough return for their time (forget about coffee dates and walks on the beach). Nothing shows you 'I care' like dinner at an expensive restaurant or expensive gifts - Or so the local logic goes. Romance has a price tag like everything else in this town. Some woman here said that women should never have sex on the first date cause it might become a habit. So, why should a man have to pay his left nut to get a date in this town? That might also become a habit. It's funny, that particular woman seems like men, as women a generation ago complained of.. They wanna get something without having to offer any commitment. If the women here were as 'traditional' as many claim to be, then as it would be my job as a man to pay out, it would be the woman's job to put out. The problem in HK is that a lot of women (not all) try to camouflage their opportunism, greed and selfishness with more romantic notions of 'tradition' and 'chivalry'. I agree with some of the posters that it should be a simple matter of equality, fairness and other fine virtues, but I think many women here don't understand those concepts. So, look at it in terms of supply and demand. There are more local women than men, and millions of mainland and South East Asian women in close proximity. Therefore, I'd suggest to those which this applies - Adapt to the changing market conditions or lose out..
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First date. As courtesy, I offer him and left me with full big bill… then I never go with this guy even he offer me next time…
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After reading the replies, I just had to put in my two cents worth. Makes me wonder who it is that's writing that women and men should go dutch on dates! I find it hard to believe that a woman would write that.
I am a Western woman and always paid my share in the West, but since being in Asia and learning a lot about men generally since then, really think the man should pay the bill!
If a man asks you out on a date, it should be his pleasure to pick the restaurant and pay the bill. If he even leaves the bill on the table for a long time it is a big turn off. If the man wants the woman to go halfs on the bill, it is setting a bad precedent for the rest of the relationship. It is my personal opinion, that if a man asks me out and we go halfs, it is not a date. I approach it from then on as a friendship.
Same thing for women approaching men, asking men for their number- I'm totally against it! If the man is interested in you, he will approach you and ask for YOUR phone number.
Women need to appreciate themselves and have better expectations for how they allow men to treat them, otherwise men become lazy and just take advantage.
This is very evident in HK where men call/sms at the last minute for a date, indeed they need not do anything except just stand there in the club as women approach them! I see it all the time. All of this makes it too easy for men and is only contributing to this 'use a woman and then go on to the next one' mindset.
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In american culture the standard is still that the guy pays at least for the first couple dates. If after the third date they are still dating, then they can talk about going dutch after that. The way it works in practice after the second date, the woman may offer to split the bill or pick it up and the guy should of course refuse and the woman should let him. After the third date the the guy might allow the woman to pick up lunch or coffee. After a few more dates the woman should be a bit more insistent about splitting the bill.
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i think a lot of women in HK want their cake and eat it too. they want to be treated as equals, but also want to continue receiving the perks of tradition. in korea, the ladies (real ladies) make genuine offers to pay their share and would only accept the man to pay the entire bill if they had some interest in him. in hk, many women want to get compensation for their time spent on a date, ESPECIALLY if they have no interest in the guy. i guess that does make sense from a business point of view, and maybe that's all that dating is to a lot of women in HK - business.
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Even though you've probably already been on your date, I'm going to give you my tuppance worth! I dont think one can give a totally definative 'western' answer. Some people like to go dutch and some people enjoy paying for everything. Then you could be dating some chav you wants you to pay. It depends on the person. I think generalising what 'western' people expect is just silly.
I offer to go dutch but I hope I won't have to! Hahaha!! As for drinks, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the phrase but in the UK we buy rounds. That means you take turns to pay. But no one keeps count. If you're with someone who cares that much about who pays for what then you really need to think if that's worth it.
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I have never gone dutch with a date in any country.
If it is meant to be a date I let the man pay the first (or second) dinner, but would offer to pay for drinks. usually I'd cover the third dinner date. It goes on like that, sometimes the guy pays, sometimes I pay.
If I don't like the guy more than 'just a friend', I'd offer my half (rounded up) and pass the cash to him subtly after dinner, I think that's fair.
but of course, it all depends on the situation. Generising 'western style' dates sounds too ignorant to me..maybe it is better to stick with cultures one is familiar with for the sake of clear communications if one is hoping for a long-lasting, communicative relationship.
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Delphi -
I hope you've already been to your date and had a great time without worrying about who paid the bill... :-) I don't know about you, but am sure felt even more anxious after reading all the different point of views. But it is indeed a very interesting topic and I am quite amazed at some of the comments posted here.
Personally, I do not think it is a "western" vs. "eastern" culture issue; it is about how to treat your date with respect. When a guy asks me out on our first date (not just hanging out) and offers to pay, I will normally offer my half. But if the guy insisted on paying, I will accept that gracefully and thank him to show my appreciation. I will then offer to pay if we went out on a second date, but if he picked up the tap again, I will definitely find a way to pay for drinks or dessert after that. I guess it all comes down to what makes both of you comfortable, no right or wrong answer. Byt the way, It really doesn't matter how your first date turns out, you shouldn't take him for a ride, am sure we do not want to be treated that way either. You shouldn't "make him" pay just because you didn’t have a good time and needed to be compensated. Not to forget, the guy also invested his time having dinner with you, so, be respectful. I suppose we have to understand that dating is not a business transaction. It is not about where you should dine and who should pay (tho I know that’s not the case here in HK for many women. I was once told by my gf that I SHOULD ask my date to take me to Caprice instead of the restaurant he chose at SOHO. What a load of crap!!) It is all about sharing a good laugh, learning about each other, having a good time together……After all, it is just a date……! If you really had a terrible time, just think of it as you had your dinner with a bad company, you can now go home and watch Grey Anatomy without eating chips and ice cream!!!
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Dating is not about community or sharing or friendship, and I can't believe some of the female responses on here. DATING is the interview process by which one selects a mate. It is not serendipity. The guy is not dating you to find out your views on whether McDreamy or McSteamy is better on "Grey's Anatomy". He is there to find out if you are the person he can be happy having sex with for a long term relationship (long term being subjective). That's it everything else is whip cream and sprinkles. He doesn't want to be your friend, if he did it wouldn't be called "dating" it would be called "hanging out", "doing something", etc. DATING = INTIMACY, NOT "FRIENDSHIP"...
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I am a guy and I agree 100% with what vallient said. Dating a girl/woman is a man thing with sex in mind, more likely to get a feel if and how it could be materialised. If it is for friendship, it would happen more likely with a bunch of others sharing the time, and probably the bill, together. Don't be naive ladies, time is too precious to be waste on looking for "friendship" unless there is something wrong with the guy. In all cases when a guy dates the opposite sex, let him pay, sit back and relax, and decide what what you want to do or don't do next.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
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Let me add ladies, for your bennifit if a man/guy does want to be/is your friend its because he wants to leverage that friendship into sleeping with you one day. Why, because being a woman's friend has 100% of the responsibility of a relationship and 0% of the bedroom privileges. Anyone who says differently is deluding themselves or deluding you...
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I can't believe this post. As for equality of salaries, if there was a way to attach a newspaper clipping about this being nonsense (all of you from the UK please note) I would be happy to do that. What is wrong with the women responding here?
It is a DATE - Is the guy looking for a buddy to hang out with or someone he is trying to get to know romantically and SEXUALLY. Just because you pay half even when you are invited doesn't mean the guy doesn't feel he is entitled to get more.
Ladies - if the guy is that cheap to expect you to pay when he invited you, stay home and read "The Rules" or "Why Men Marry Bitches" and any number of good books to learn about what is chivalry and what is NOT.
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No if he was feeling completely screwed he'd have a smile on his face and some girls bra and panties on his bedroom floor. That is why guys don't date 10 woman they dont think they can get in bed, any guy that does doesn't know what he is doing, and needs the lesson. What can I say education can be expensive.
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