So if Asia is so hard on relationships then what can we do here as women to keep our partners from straying, besides the obvious, keeping things hot in the bedroom:)
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Well, I don't think being hot in bed is enoughas as there's no way men can resist as pieces of meat are everywhere, different looks, different taste..not really a good place for couple to be honest... everyone just need to be ready to accept what will be the consequences when they move here..I hate to say this but it's true..have seen a lot of ruined marriages and relationships.
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oh here we go again.....countless excuses for men and their infidelities...
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Expat marriage is like sailing. You can't sail a lake boat on the open sea. If your husband isn't the type of person who can resist temptations you'll have to be sure his free time is with you. Find interesting activities to do and don't sit home.
Sailing is a lot of fun. But a lot of work. To make a fantastic journey, you and your partner need to work well together.
One last rule: when it gets rough, no one jumps ship.
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My advice would be to keep yourself fit, physically and mentally. Do not nag, no matter what. If something is bothering you, pick the time and place to discuss it calmly.
Allow your partner some relaxing time when he comes back from work, or a business trip. Do not pester him with questions - relax and let him relax.
The work environment for expats is typically very competitive and intense - factor that into your lifestyles. Spoil him a bit, and do not be surprised if and when he forgets birthdays/anniversaries etc.
In other words, cut him some slack in unimportant things, but make sure that you do spend quality time together doing things that you both enjoy doing together.
Finally, do not make a mountain out of a molehill - ever.
Good luck.
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Ask not what you can do to keep him, rather what he must do to keep you. Better yet, why don't you both work hard to keep each other? There you go. A marriage... whether it's in Asia or elsewhere.
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How many times do we have to listen to this rubbish......"Oh, since we've been in Asia our marriage/relationship is now on the rocks because of all the pretty girls blah blah blah......."
If the marriage/relationship was strong enough then it wouldn't matter where you are in the world.
To blame being in Asia has to be the lamest excuse ever!!
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haha it's funny to me.. The main thing breaking up marriages in Asia between expat couples is this: Women's Lib.
There.
I said it.
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Boo1
15 yrs ago
Donut Waver, what are you on?
Ex pat marriages in HK fail predominatnly for one reason, the fact that men are offered it on a plate by countless women and some, unfortunately take it to the detriment of their families and marriages.
I am not talking about hookers here.
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Devon
15 yrs ago
I totally agree with Donut Waver.
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Any relationship takes work - it doesn't matter where in the world you are, how much money you have, how beautiful you are or how good it was to start with... some partners will stray in Asia, Europe or anywhere and some partners won't even when it's "offered on a plate"
Men and women stray when they are unhappy - at home or with themselves - work at all aspects of the relationship - do things together and apart, don't nag, appreciate each other- it's not just about pretty underwear and a willingness to role play!
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Mr. Grossman,
Very good question you asked. But I don’t think the answer is lying in the sexes.
I tell you a real story. Once I was friends with my neighbor, a young couple , who were in their early 20’s with two kids and the wife was pregnant with a third. The husband was a handsome and brilliant student and a TA in a very reputable college and his wife was part-time student but staying home taking care of the kids most of the time. They seemed to be having hard time in their marriage since I heard them argued a lot. One day after a few drinks, I asked how he was holding up, with the school, kids and wife stuff. He said it was hard. He admitted there were couple students of his aggressively pursuing him and that made his wife uneasy. I half jokingly asked: “So how do they look like? Are they hot?” “Yes, very.” Then he furthered with details of sometimes he would be in a situation that everything around him was telling him to accept what he desired since everyone else was doing it, for god’s sake, he was in college and in his early 20’s. “So… did you do it?” I almost felt sympathetic to him if he would answer yes. “No.” he said. “Not that I never fantasized them. But everything time I imagined my wife would see me having sex with other woman, how sad she would be, I stopped myself.”
Mr. Grossman, that is the difference. Some people concern about the moral consequence of their actions more than the others. I always heard people using the term “one thing leads to another” to justify their immoral actions. They don’t want to admit that, there is always a moment in this chain of even, a voice is telling them to stop. Whether or not they will listen to this voice, makes the difference between a grown-up man and a boy. For those who don’t know what voice I am talking about, sorry to say that, you are just bunch of monkeys.
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So can the frds here share any drawbacks for an expat to have casual sex with the women here?? I always think there is no FREE LUNCH in the world. Yes. The expat may easy find girls to have sex with. there must be some drawbacks from that.
I know an expat, he has casual sex with some philippinos in HK. He got trapped in with an unplanned baby. Now he is feeding the philippino and the baby. The woman used the baby money for her own use/her frd/her family. She made used of the baby and get more money from the man.
Its hard for the expat frd to give up the baby cos its a life. But in other side, its also hard for him to take care of the woman (a woman that he just used for sex).
its like pain in the a** and its his own consequence that he is suffering.
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sicn i might agree with you in principle but there is one disturbing fact here: satistics show that more than 60% of hk men have sex outside their main relationship and if i remember correctly more than 35% of hk women do the same.
now deduct some percentages for people who have sex with others but their partners know/agree, you still end up with a pretty high % of what is usually called cheating.
if you deduct from a 100% of all people those that never get a chance to cheat (no money for prostitutes, never getting approached, etc.), it looks to me that you have a very high % of people who have the chance to cheat actually DO cheat.
i don't think they can all be called all monkeys.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
To Mr. Grossman,
You are probably right about the 1% difference. It is also my belief that 1% enables human to tell right from wrong and give them the desire to do the right thing. I assume everyone anticipates in this post wanting to do the right thing. But the magic cheating-proof pill doesn’t exit. There is NO easy way to do it. Your brain might not be your favorite organ, it does have much more powe than your favorite one.
To cookie09, it is true that the percentage of cheaters among us is high. If you only live your life like the people around you, then I hope you are surrounded by some happy, interesting and respectable people. If you look around, none of them are like that, then you know how your life is.
I witnessed many men-turned-monkeys in wonderlands like HK. In the end, they only hurt the persons who truly love them and make them out of their lives. Slowly, their lives start to drift away. Those people can never go home. They can only dip their lives from one place to another, sharing their beds with one sweetie after another. They forgot what love really means. “I love you “ is merely a password for free and passionate sex. After years of drama between honey and money, they would love to go to bed alone when they are not horny. They brag about their “colorful lives” with strangers in bars of airport on Christmas Eves, to hide their deeply saddened memories of the past.
It is not a crime to cheat on your love ones. But you do have a choice, no matter what excuses you are giving yourself.
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Read page 5 and 6. There are also divorce spikes after 3 years into a marriage. They've theorized that this is because this is the time it takes to raise a baby through its most vulnerable stages.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19930301-000030&page=5
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merm
15 yrs ago
Nobody seems to have made the clarification that expat women are just as likely to throw themselves at attached men as the local women do.
On cheating here, the % is especially high amongst men who frequently travel to china for work. Red flag for me.
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In answer to Boo1!
I am on two doses of realism and a liberal dose of common sense applied daily, thanks for asking :-)
Please can you also provide links to proof of what you're saying? Then I might, just might, take your answer seriously.
Many thanks.
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A lot of interesting and valid views here.
From a male point of view I can only say that as a divorced middle-aged male who has not had any relationship in HK for more than 2 years I really feel no need to get involved with a woman simply because there are too many available younger women and I would not know where to start. I feel sorry for married guys. I do not condone their behavior but I can fully understand the temptation they must feel. There can be few other places on the planet with so many available younger women. HK is middle-aged male heaven.
I would not get married again simply because I am over-whelmed at the amount of choice available and to do so would mean possibly jeopardising my marriage. I have had well-over 80 ONS in two years and can always count on seeing one or two on Sundays if I wish (domestic helpers - not tourist girls or local Chinese).
It's not working girls or HK girls ex-pat wives should be afraid of but domestic helpers. Think about it. Three hundred thousand or so mainly young and beautiful, sexually-frustrated women who are impoverished and looking for a way out. I am not talking about the helper in your house but the one(s) hubby meets on Saturdays or Sundays. What starts out as a bit of fun fo rthe male and extra-pocket money for the helper can soon get out of hand once the SMS and phone calls start.
I would say for a (single) male, HK is just about as good as it gets. That said, I have the utmost RESPECT for any male who is strong enough to turn his back on the temptation available and put his family first. That takes balls.
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There are intelligent, attractive and socially adept men as well as good ole nice guys around in Hong Kong, but they wont be hanging out with the guys on this thread who 'don't know anyone who doesn't cheat?'..or don't know why anyone would marry someone other than type a) Filipina AND must have experience in the sex industry?
Realistically, they wouldn't be on this forum at all.
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Give it a rest please. we are expats in asia just come to grips as to what has been going on in this part of the world for hundreds of years the only difference is that we are fat ugly bald poor skinned rotten teeth load mouth yobos that suddenly think that we are actually good looking and that these asian girls actually are attracted to us!!! .
Yeh come on!! they like us because we got car,cash,condominium and should any of that run out then look out.
Ohhh i forgot to say that we are actually good in bed after 20 pints and half a dozen jack daniels and cokec*ckthe leg and a good old belch how could these asian flowers resist us!!!!!
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I find the only way I can cope with temptation in HK and the rest of Asia is not to have any relationship at all. I value my freedom too much and don't want to go down the marriage route again.
In spite of whatever people say, marriage IS harder in Asia for Western guys simply because there are more chances to cheat. It's like putting a rat in charge of the cheese larder. I know I am a rat and I will raid that larder so I prefer not to put myself in a position where my behaviour will cause pain to another.
If I moved back to Europe I would consider marrying but in Asia? No way! Just too many available girls. The flip side is of course that sometimes I miss a more permanent attachment and someone to connect with emotionally but on balance I feel the path I have chosen is the right one for me at the moment.
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I'm asian but I don't think every girl here throw themselves to these so called good looking white guys. And I actually feel sick of them trying to hit on me on the street. There was one time this european about 30+ came up to me in the morning while I was on my way to work, at the end he reached his phone out and asked for my number and I said no....then he was like "Last chance?Bye!" I was so pissed and now I know I shoudn't be too nice!
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I don't think anyone is saying that every Asian girl throws herself at gweilos. What we are saying is that there is a sizeable percentage of the HK female population (bit not necessarily indigenous Chinese) do provide many Gweilos here with cheating opportunities. Gweilos don't have to be good looking - just the fact that they are here and these girls are looking for a way out.
I don't cheat because I am not married and not in a relationship but that is by choice because I know I could not resist temptation. HK is a paradise for single males and a guy can be very, very selective for at least 15 -20 years longer in Asia than he could in the West. I'm 45 and I know i can probably carry on like this
for another 10 years or so with females 20 years younger. I frequently ask myself why I would want to throw such a lifestyle away and choose marriage.
My behaviour is not cheating - it does not hurt anyone - but it would if I was in a committed relationship and that is why I shy away from it. To tell the truth, I used to look at married couples with or without children and envy them. Now, I cannot believe my good fortune to be single, in reasonable health with a bit of money in my pocket and living in Asia. For me, that's about as good it gets. But to the nice, family oriented guy who is holding everything together in HK/Asia I tip my hat and would urge him to keep the status quo.
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Unfortunately from my experience, no matter what you do, you husband may still cheat. It helps if you can develop a deep relationship with him where you can talk openly about your problems and if you are Christians so that he knows he needs to accountable to Him for his actions. However, this requires a lot of skill and without the help of a good marriage conselor, you may never even know if your husband is harboring anger in him.
As a good friend once told me- if the kettle is hot, and they know that it will destroy them, them won't do it. However, if touching the kettle may only destroy your wife or children, chances may be taken.
Would your husband kill someone and go to jail for having random sex? Absolutely not as so many of their friends are doing it and getting away scotch free.
Men cheat becuase it is great to have sex with many women. It makes them feel like a man and they become accepted as one of the boys and can brag about it. They also like the feeling of being treated like a king- it is an ago trip.
In the bible, how did the prostitute get the man to commit adulttery? She did it with flattery and not sex. She said I have done all my vows and now I want you.
My husband has been cheating on me for the last 6 years with mistresses and prostitutes. He gave me hpv also. I am trying to make this marriage work becuase he wants to change and make it work but I sometimes want to kick him from here to kingdom come. I am turning into a psycho becuase of the things that I have gone through.
If you see anything wrong, please consider marriage conseling. If you are a believer, then ask God to take control of your marriage
I pray that all works out for you
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First, I wouldn't waste my time with a man who has such little respect for women as human beings to think nothing of his partner by having sexual liasons with women who are "pretty" and "available on a platter".
Women need to recognise their worth as human beings and be more discerning when it comes to choosing a life partner .
Changing themselves by spending hours in a gym/plastic surgery et al to try and retain a partners interest - when all he wants to do is follow his lust without thought for wife or children - is not going to work.
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Compare this post to an extract from the "Good Wife Guide: Are you a good wife?" FROM May 1955!!!!!!!!
"My advice would be to keep yourself fit, physically and mentally. Do not nag, no matter what. If something is bothering you, pick the time and place to discuss it calmly.
Allow your partner some relaxing time when he comes back from work, or a business trip. Do not pester him with questions - relax and let him relax.
The work environment for expats is typically very competitive and intense - factor that into your lifestyles. Spoil him a bit, and do not be surprised if and when he forgets birthdays/anniversaries etc.
In other words, cut him some slack in unimportant things, but make sure that you do spend quality time together doing things that you both enjoy doing together.
Finally, do not make a mountain out of a molehill - ever."
AND .....
Here are a couple "tips" from the good wife's guide (maY 13 1955) to give you an idea of how ridiculous this guide is ( AND some of the attitudes prevailing in modern day ASIA it seems!):
* Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
* A good wife always knows her place.
Did Asia miss out on almost 60 years of toil by equal rights activists???:
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13 STEPS TO KEEPING YOUR EXPAT MAN FROM CHEATING
(COURTESY OF THE GOOD WIFES GUIDE OF MAY 13 , 1955)
1 Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.
2 Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
3 Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.
4 Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables. (OR IN ASIA ASK THE DW TO DO IT )
5 During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.
6 Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.
7 Be happy to see him.
8 Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.
9 Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.
10 Don't greet him with complaints and problems.
11 Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work.
12 Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.
13 Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
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For me, I prefer to have a domestic helper (either full or part time) and completely eschew a personal relationship. I work long hours and travel frequently and treat my helper well knowing that she will take care of things.
If I want to have fun I go out to Wan Chai and sometimes bring a girl back home. Why would any single guy in HK want marriage? Guys in the West are paying USD 10K a year to spend 2 weeks a year in Asia doing what i do. The difference is that someone is paying me to be here...
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Start with the small things, make more effort as if it was the beginning of the relationship, do those little things again, record his favourite football match, buy her her favourite flowers just because is Monday, a stress free home etc. I brought a pop art canvas of us the other day, she was over the moon. Take yourself back to the time when you first met each other then you will know what to do. A surprise romantic gift will always do the trick from her favourite piece of cake to an old photo of both of you, doesn’t have to be expensive, just let her/him know you still care. Try the canvas it works http://www.popartprints.blogspot.com like a charm. Good luck ppl.
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i read an article where a wife said she had a foolproof strategy, she gave her man a you-know-what at least once a day perhaps more if he deserved it although what he would have had to do to 'deserve it' boggles the mind
if you don't want that much exercise then you'll just have to rely on faith. As Donut says, you shouldn't have to do anything more anyway than just be a good partner and do your share in making the relationship a happy one. Anything else is just bending over backwards to make him do something he should be doing anyway.
Also depends on what the husband looks like. If he's not particularly good looking you probably have nothing worry about.
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true cinderella true
but the whole good looking local woman going out with ordinary expat male scenario is vastly over estimated, most of the girls are very ordinary
so chances are that glowing is a better catch than any potential rival anyway
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True squidburger.
Beneath the make-up and the 'fashionable' clothes, most local girls are very 'vanilla'.
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D888
15 yrs ago
I am a bit surprised now, I read like all the time "I am so afraid that my husband is cheating on me" and that for the simple fact that you are in Asia, oh come on, give me a break. I could not help but wonder what is wrong with your marriages these days.
Of course there are good looking girls around, but honestly, there are a lot of ugly girls around, too. So, I absolutely don't understand why you are so afraid AND GUYS, stop excusing here, if you have been cheating, you would have been cheating in any other part of the world, too. Stop blaming it all on the Asian girls.
My husband is working in China during the week and why should I be afraid that he is cheating on me? - It's not like he would find somebody smarter or more attractive than me, there was a reason why we got married in the first place. So, where is your self confidence? - I went out a couple of times here in Hong Kong and frankly speaking I have the same chances of cheating on him. So, my husband could go crazy, too and write in this forum, but I always see women complaining about the Asian girls. Come on, if you are that afraid that your husband cheats on you, there might be something wrong with your marriage, which goes much deeper. Do blame it on him if he cheats and NOT on the Asian girls.
Eventhough, I keep defending the Asian girls, you have to know that I am European and so is my husband.
Start enjoying your life in Hong Kong it is an AMAZING city!
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tpol
15 yrs ago
For guys > 35+, the more you do it with him, the less he will have the urge.
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Very well said D888!
Girls like guys can just as well cheat. I think it's completely idiotic to cheat simply when you have the chance to. If you can easily be tempted by another individual and cheat it shows what a weak individual you. It is not justifiable to blame it on manhood or the abundance of attractive women. I'm an attractive female and I always get hit on by guys especially when I'm in Hong Kong. But I know how to respect not only my boyfriend but myself by warding off sexual requests. Fight the temptations!
One thing I noticed is Hong Kong girls are more promiscuous when it comes to money, foreigners, and attractive men. The non marriage age for HK girls is rising.
You might think cheating is fun but wait till you mature. Mark my words one day you'll wake up and realize you're missing that special someone and you'll be withering in the corner. 80 ONS is nothing. My boyfriend and I can match within a matter of months. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can have unlimited ONS. But how many of you can say you found true love?
If you found someone you love, do yourself a favor and resist the temptations. I'm sure you wouldn't want your partner to either! As for preventing your partner to cheat... trust is the key. Express your concerns to your partner. If you find out he has cheated... DUMP HIM!
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".... AND GUYS, stop excusing here, if you have been cheating, you would have been cheating in any other part of the world, too. Stop blaming it all on the Asian girls."
I love what you said D888 :-) I am your fan now! ^^
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Everyone has a different take on life and not everyone approaches life from the same angle. Sunnysunny11 I hear what you say but not everyone is looking for a relationship or wants to find true love. Not every guy in HK is cheating because some of us are completely unattached. I agree that 80 ONS is nothing...
I know a fair number of middle-aged divorced gweilos in HK who could not envisage getting married again or even having a steady girl friend. The reason they give is always the same - namely that they do not want the restrictions a relationship puts on them. Each to his own.
Most of these guys are in their 40s. All have been through messy and expensive divorces and none of them want to repeat the exercise. The situation in HK and Asia is that single gweilos can be active on the 'dating' front until their early to late 50s so a single 40 something male based in Asia does not feel any pressure to settle down. Even in his 50s he can find a girl in her 20s or early 30s. I would even go so far as to say that a single 40-something gweilo in Asia is in his dating prime. The day may well come when I want to settle down again but I know that I have up to 10 years for that day to come and I can still land a great girl 20 years or so younger. What's the rush?
In a nutshell, if men relocate to HK and Asia with a wife and family then it gets very messy and I have no respect for their behavior. However, for a single guy up to his late 50s or so it doesn't really get much better and I can see very little reason to pick one fruit in the bowl when the bowl is filled to the brim with exotic fruits.
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i'm in my early 20's and i would never date someone who's 50s..even 40s.....good luck to the people who thinks that they can find a nice and young girl when they are at that age.
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Ahem. You clearly don't frequent Wan Chai on a Sunday afternoon where Gweilos are outnumbered by hot young south east Asian girls on their day off. The girls are hunting the guys.
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Have fun hanging out with all those "Exotic", "Young" and "Hot" girls in WANCHAI then. I don't want to be stereotype but I can't help myself after reading some of the posts here.
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strangelove and guys like your types- you have nothing to offer to the world, or women in general. If you were going to die tomorrow the only person that'll miss you is your landlord.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
I don't understand why people who don't want or not able to have a relationship will visit post like this for people who want to keep a relationship. It is like beggar counting his pennies in front of bunch drooling 5 year old kids?
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"strangelove and guys like your types- you have nothing to offer to the world, or women in general. If you were going to die tomorrow the only person that'll miss you is your landlord"
Oh I don't know. I suspect ex-wifey would miss the alimony...
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Dr. Strangelove,
"Even in his 50s he can find a girl in her 20s or early 30s. "
I guess money is the only thing you can offer to those HOT girls in wanchai and seems like this is the only reason why those young girls hanging with someone who is old enough to be her dad.
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it's funny how you can never win an argument over wan chai - albeit i would guess that most of the people commenting have never been there lol
i am not saying what strangelove thinks is right or wrong, but he did mention wan chai on a SUNDAY AFTERNOON which is quite a special time of the week for wan chai. if one doesn't know this difference then better not comment here before having seen it...
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Wanchai on Sunday morning ... definately not about the church bell. Maybe the left-over desperado? haha...
We shouldn't be so harsh. It is pretty sad indeed.
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"i am not saying what strangelove thinks is right or wrong, but he did mention wan chai on a SUNDAY AFTERNOON which is quite a special time of the week for wan chai. if one doesn't know this difference then better not comment here before having seen it..."
Thank you Cookie09. You are correct and the only one to recognise it. I never go to Wan Chai at night and never go with working girls. I date helpers only. Wan Chai on a Sunday afternoon is indeed a very special time. Had a tough divorce. Am sure I'll eventually find a great girl there one Sunday afternoon and maybe settle down.
Good luck to you guys, too. But please, don't knock Wan Chai on a Sunday afternoon. As Cookie says - it is totally different.
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HK is a nice place, but I don't find it particularly tempting. As a caucasian man in my 50's, I doubt if I share much in common with younger Asian women. I find most women in HK to be quite ordinary, although I am also quite ordinary. I find the sight of a 50ish, overweight, white man with a much younger Asian woman to be repulsive. I assume it is mutual exploitation. What kind of relationship can they hope to have? If they want mutual respect, love and understanding, I think they have almost no chance. While Asian women in their 20's are physically attractive, I prefer women of my own age. As an older man, I want a relationship to be comfortable. While sex is nice, I much prefer quiet evenings together and interesting conversation. I am difficult to understand even by someone from within my own cultural sub-group. It is even harder for a cross-cultural relationship to work. Why would any younger, Asian women have an interest in a modest, older white man if it were not exploitative?
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Not all asian girls are hookers. Please don't mix up. Most of us prefer to local guys.
Sure there are many hookers in the street still, men, if you just want sex with them, go ahead, but only with them. You don't deserve a woman waiting for you at home.
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maxis
15 yrs ago
It is funny.
When people see an above average sort of guy with a frumpy or not so aesthetically pleasing woman, they think “oh, how sweet, he must really appreciate her for her inner qualities, what a lovely guy”.
But when it is reversed, and particularly if the guy is white and the girl asian people say “ugh, look at that creep! all those bald/overweight western guys are sleazy losers who wouldn’t be able to get a decent girl in their own country!”
You hear people making comments like this about mixed couples. Maybe he is a kind, gentle, generous guy….who knows? But judgement is made immediately.
However, don’t forget, the single professional 30 to 40yr old western guys in HK are not representative of society in their own country. For example, in general, they are
1. over achievers
2. highly intelligent
3. quite at the top of their trees professionally,
4. successful
5. have a fair bit of money
and the women in HK know it, don’t worry. These attributes, in particularly in HK culture, are highly desirable. Many of these guys would be in the top 1% in their own country.
So why wouldn’t the women be eager to meet and date these guys? The competition is tough and aggressive techniques needed by the gals. Someone who has items 1 to 5 above, and who is not Frankenstein, who is not a snob or nasty or a racist, probably looks like a damn good deal.
These sort guys often have busy and stressful lives and don’t have the time, patience or inclination for women “hard to get” or mind games, so it is a pretty good deal for him too.
If I wasn’t spoken for I’d be out there lapping it up too, yet certainly am not jealous of those who are out there having the times of their lives!
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People, let's lay off the ageist remarks, please!
Sometimes, love (yes, that commitment) defies age gaps. Rare, and I do agree in most cases it's mainly for sex or commerce purposes, but occasionally people with quite an age gap do find their soulmate.
My husband is 20 years my senior. I am not a 'Wanchai girl', a Domestic Helper or a local looking to 'marry up'. I'm a level headed, attractive caucasian girl who had her fair pick of the meat market. I wasn't looking for an older man, but it happened. Probably had a hell of a lot to do with the fact that my husband understood the fluff in his navel as opposed to the 'untested, uncertain younger males'. Love isn't always convenient. It doesn't always come in an ideal, same age/race/class package. But who's going to knock back a soulmate when they come knocking on your door? Your outlook on the whole world changes. You don't SEE any of the boundaries that outsiders may speculate. My own husband had vowed never to marry again after his first marriage ended. Life changes. It makes me sick to the stomach when I overhear people gossiping about 'the old gweilo' and his 'young piece of ass'. But in the end, I figure, If that's all they've got to talk about I really can only pity them. Small minded, obviously with nothing better to do than bitch on about others.
We each approach relationships and interractions with mates from our own perspective, with our own needs. For the women poking fun at the 50's style households, if that life isn't for you, that's fine, but don't degrade the beliefs of a generation that was generally still married 50 years later. Surely they did something right? For hubby and I, having a head of the house does work. Yes, I do plan meals ahead to please him, I DO have a cool drink ready on his arrival home, I DO occasionally remove his shoes and rub his feet. Why? A relationship is a two way street, pleasing my husband in turn pleases me. Net result? My hubby chooses to spend his spare time, weekends and after-work drinks with me, not in a trashy bar trying to work out which hallway he'll throw his sausage into. A Wanchai girl may open her legs, but will she cook him a gourmet meal every night? (it also helps that hubby prefers 'white meat' as he so aptly dscribes it)
In order for a marriage to work, you both need to be on the same page, mutual needs must be recognised, and acted upon. Work out where your power balance is in the relationship, after all, there is only so much standing off that two bulls can achieve before one walks away.
At the end of the day, if a man isn't marriage material prior to marriage, don't even go there. I raise my hat to the men on here openly acknowledging the fact that marriage isn't for them. Your own understanding of the fluff in your navel is saving a hell of a lot of angst and mutually wasted years. Just remember to jump off the boat before it sinks though, any decade over 50 and your chances of scoring some occasional company may diminish. Could get lonely. (Though you'd always have the remote control, wouldn't have to worry about coasters, your couches would not be invaded by scatter cushions and yes, beer can count as nutrition.)
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Wow! I am humbled by kim.constable's post. It shows me for how cynical I've become. I've never met a woman who ever gave a damn about how I felt. If I didn't perfectly measure up, I was just discarded like a piece of trash. If I ever met a woman who really cared about me, I wouldn't care if she looked like Frankenstein. Being judgemental of others is my way of covering my own pain. Your description of married life seems like a dream. It is hard to believe it really exists.
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Thanks for coming back to my response Basker. Yes, we count ourselves as extremely lucky. It takes a lot of effort on both parts, but it sure makes life worth living. It's about achieving a symbiosis, where both partner's needs reflect the others. With the odd bit of compromise.
I just wanted to point out that often what we see on the surface is not what it seems.
And bravo to the men who live in HK without having to lie about what they're up to!
Back onto topic anyway -
What a lot of people fail to remember is that the painful factor of cheating is not the fact that somebody has put their sausage in an alternative hallway, it's the lies and deception used to cover it up that hurt the most. If you cant control your sausage, or have problems allowing only exclusive access into your hallway, it's probably best to leave it as public property, with no owner.
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D888
15 yrs ago
First of all Thanks Mabelhongkong!
I keep reading the comments you all made and I am getting the impression that the guys on this forum are pretty average.
Consider the following; If you are halfway as intelligent and handsome as you claim to be, you would actually know that you can have sex in ANY city around the globe. I assume you are those guys who were always going home alone in your home countries and any other European, Australian or American country. AND since you have been in Asia, you could not believe that there are women actually willing to have sex with you. - I get it now, that is actually the reason why you guys are cheating and than blaming it on the Asian girls, what a bunch of losers you appear to be.
AND MAXIS: Your list seem to be correct, but I disagree with the fact that these attributes are particular in HK valued. Let me tell you these attributes are valued all over the world. If you mention in NY, Zurich or elsewhere around the globe that you are a "CEO" ,"Managing Director", Partner or whatever, it will take exactly 30 seconds and you will see a bunch of girls surrounding you, willing to have sex with you. So, again, stop blaming it on culture or Asian girls.
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D888
15 yrs ago
And Mr. Grossman, considering your comments, you seem to be pretty much "average" too. Sorry.
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In my case, I never have and never will have sex with Asian women. Please don't assume every expat man in HK is only out to screw everything that walks with no concern for the consequences. While I may not be able to live with my wife, I won't betray her.
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everything kim said makes sense except all "locals looking up". not all locals are synonymous with marrying up gweilos(and i wonder it if's actually marrying down), even the 'local' golddiggers would go for rich chinese guys first actually
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Look, EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BE HAPPY. No matter a young poor submissive Asian girl with a fat old western white boy friend or an attractive level headed Caucasian lady with her older husband, as long as they do not build their happiness on cheating, lies or damages to other people’s happiness. If you don’t like what you see, instead making a perfectly happy couple uncomfortable by staring at them, maybe you need to go home to check your brain.
To the cheaters, we can’t deny the fact that in Hong Kong, there IS a lot more young, attractive and willing local girls than they encounter back home. But again, is it such a big deal? Do you really think you are such god’s gift for the women? Or maybe all you can offer them is merely equal to a talking dildo with battery can only last 10 minutes? If a guy only knows how to get happiness from the lower part of his body, he is truly a boring and dull being. And he probably does not deserve a relationship from any woman either.
The more I read about you guys’ writing, the more I believe the saying that a high percentage of expat men suffer from mental disorder and depression when they move back home. Before it gets to that bad, please, take a real hard look into the mirror; is that you or the local to blame?
And last, never to have sex with Asian woman does not make you an upright person, but a racist.
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what makes you so angry sicn? it's amazing to read your posts
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sicn is right to say that each couple should be allowed to find their own happiness without being judged by others. How does my faithfulness to my marriage vows equal racism? I will try to clarify my true feelings. I would love to have sex with an attractive Asian woman, but I choose not to because of the damage it would cause to my family, the lady's emotions and my own soul.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Thanks for reading my reply. I read it again, it does sound a bit too harsh.
I guess the more I read into other people‘s writing, the more I am feeling the pain and struggle for the people who trying to hold the family together in places like HK. Many points are right: temptations, powerful ones, exit everywhere and all the time. And it is true that many people around you are giving in to it openly or discreetly and leaving you the itches. Here, women from the west are seeing a fleet of smiley Asian ladies with “open mind” undoing decades’ works of the feminist movement and the husband are running off track from centuries of accumulated family values for the drips and drips of luring pleasures. It is like family under going the test of globalization: are the Levi jeans back home overpriced or the local Levi sold too cheap? Hopefully your family does not o for the economic rules but bound by mutual understanding, caring, loving and sharing of common goals and dreams. All I can say for this moment is that when you live in Rome, you don’t have to do what Romans do. But be aware of what they do that you don’t want your husbands to do.
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"Here, women from the west are seeing a fleet of smiley Asian ladies with 'open mind' undoing decades’ works of the feminist movement.."
I hate to point it out, but to use your argument- well go to Japan or korea, even Beijing these days, you'll see not only Asian women with an "open mind" but ladies from Russia or Eastern Europe have an even more 'open minded' attitude. So are women from the "west"(whatever it means) automatically granted the right to judge and tell what women's roles are in every society? Why? Oh because women from the "West" are more educated, sophisticated, or just plain hypocritical?
Please stop anymore of these generalizing and negative comments and attacks on Asian women.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Magnolia, I happen to have a lot of free time these days so please allow me.
Here go the “A” word again. I am just simply stating the fact that among all the cases of expat marriage and relationship fail after moving to Hong Kong, or other Asian cities like Hong Kong, most of them are the expat guys going for the local women who appear to be sweeter, nicer and friendlier on the surface. I have no intention to degrade all the Asian women. I am sure most of the Asian women in Hong Kong don’t go for the attached expat guys and will not think I have offended them at all. In fact, they might share the same pain that their middle-aged husbands go for other women who happened to be mainly from the poorer parts of Asia. I do not think those “Asian women” are to blame. But you know it takes two willing parties to have an affair. I just cannot put their willingness to be with taken men in any “Positive” way. In places like China, being “Er Nai” (mistresses) of rich guys almost becomes a common profession for the young and pretty girls, even the educated ones. While married women from the “west”, I mean places where the society has been cultivated by women’s right and equality movement for decades, move to places like Hong Kong, where their husbands suddenly can play by different rules with the local women, I do feel for them.
About what role women shall play in society, I did not and have no intention to discuss it here. You see, we can be totally politically correct and not generalize at all and not offend anyone and at the end, you haven’t really discussed anything that most of us don’t know about and haven’t really solved any problem.
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"I am just simply stating the FACT that among ALL the cases of expat marriage and relationship fail after..."
So you did a survey on ALL affairs happened in Hong Kong expat community? I just shudder whenever I read words like "all"..
As it is said by others- let's not blame on one type of people or culture. To say "Undoing decades works of feminist movements" by "a fleet of smiley Asian ladies" is one-sided. Not every woman can enjoy privileges of cultivating lofty ideals of feminism when they can barely eat. Why can't you feel for them instead? But it only sounds like you haven't really discussed anything we don't know besides elaborated on the stereotypes of those "sweeter, nicer and friendlier ON-THE-SURFACE" Asian women.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Magnolia, you are right I haven’t discussed any of the real issues behind the scenes. Of course men are always first thing to blame. They are just not as much humanly developed as women want them to be. Then what is the solution? Maybe just not come to Asia at all or find a way to curb their animalistic desire with pills or surgery? End of discussion?
Never the less, the local environment is part of the equation. You mentioned sympathy for the poor hungry Asian women. What planet you are from? You really think those sweet Asian babes clinging on the arms of married Gweilo (note that I am not talking about prostitute here) are really hungry for food? Or are they hungry for money, lust and vanity? Adultery is adultery. Doesn’t matter you are rich or poor. Being involved with married men is wrong no matter what culture and what economic class you are from. You are right about these things happened anywhere, from Dubai to New York City. But in Hong Kong, it manifests itself so many times that almost every other middle aged men you bump into on the street has a little “xiaomi” (little honey) hidden in a nest somewhere. Let’s not blame these women, but to help them instead, right? But how? If those women and the people around them don’t think what they are doing for a living is wrong, how can you help them? Give them education teach them skill and offer them counseling? You know most of them are well educated and with skills, and many of them do work at places where they meet their pray.
Maybe the wives shall just give up. Like some says, when “love” is gone, nothing you can do about it. Either tolerate it or divorce and hand the men to those “smiley ladies”. But is it even fare for the wives, and the children involved? Of course some of you will say, the fault is at the husbands. But how can you punish a husband without hurting the real victims: his family? Not too long ago, China was considering giving the right for the wives to sue their husbands’ mistresses, a desperate attempt to stop these “Er Nai” phenomena and ease the social tension caused by it. You know Chinese married women have the highest suicide rate in the world. Does that tell you something?
In this mess, who has most to lose and who has nothing but to gain? Do you see my point?
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cd
15 yrs ago
Being married, and living in HK for the last 12 years, I think its easier to keep a marriage going here than in the UK in many respects. Because we have helpers to take away some of the stress of housework, and we live in a rented house so spend very little time on DIY and gardening, free time is our own, to spend with the kids on family things, or to spend with friends or each other. Its much easier to devote time together as a couple when you have a babysitter on hand. Rather than having to book someone weeks in advance.
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tpol
15 yrs ago
"Being involved with married men is wrong no matter what culture and what economic class you are from"
Sicn, I am sure some cultures and religions allow multiple wives. I believe it is Muslims in certain countries.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Cd, yes, it is easier with cheaper help. But you know some helpers are CHEAPER in other ways too. You know in their minds, they all want to be you if they can.
I read a blog of a Chinese teacher who was employed by an expat family to teacher their young kind. In her blog, she revealed how she slept with the husband once and very sad about he would not do that with her any more even though she was willing to keep just the sex. And if your husband has married firends who have lived in other parts of asia, they can tell him earful tales like that sa well.
Just make sure that people are not how they appear to be.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
To tpol,
In Muslim culture, it is strickly prohibited that an "UNMARRIED" or married wife of another husband to be involved with a married man. Those women would have their heads chop off.
If you mean polygomy, you do know they are all "Married" and the marriage is protected and acceptable.
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cd
15 yrs ago
To sicn,
after 12 years I have never heard of anyone I know having affairs with their helper, a couple of times have heard of it happening with friends of friends of friends. And I would hope my husband wouldn't have any ideas in that direction seeing as my helpers male!!!
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" most of them are the expat guys going for the local women who appear to be sweeter, nicer and friendlier on the surface. "
I could not help but laugh at the "on the surface" comment. Sounds like jealousy to me.
I once dated a western guy who cheated on me with a caucasian woman, granted I was not married to him yet back then. But that British woman even had the nerve to call me at 3 am from his mobile phone on a night when I was having a fever and resting at home. Oh yes, she knew that we were in a serious long term relationship and being the SWEET girl that she was, she wished me well regarding my illness and told me to rest a bit more as well. How sweet "on the surface"! rofl
So, if anyone is going to hurl any generalising comments on Asian women, please remember there is no saint in this world and definitely there is no one nationality being better than the others.
I just hate such holier than thou racist comment. Is racist remark allowed on this site?
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First Thanks everyone for there commenets:)
Yup I guess I have pretty much heard it all now... and yes I do also feel that a marriage that is strong can with handle anything that life throws at it whether it be Asia or anywhere else in the world. Sometimes nfidelity wakes both parties up to realize their are needs that need addressing and at imes I have seen it as a wake up call.
2ndly for the men out there that say all men cheat eventually!!! Baloney!!! I have actually met men out there that havent and have no plans to... having said that they hold strong Christain values and hold their families dear to them so in the end they say yes the tempatation is there but it always comes down to a choice.
Yes a choice whatever we are faced with we always have a choice...so for all of us men and women out there the next time we are faced with that choice...How are we gonna choose and why? I think that is where our answers lie is in our choices...
What i also find interesting is that many men dont go out looking to cheat ..it kinda just pops up(sorry about the pun) and the amount of available women willing to put out is mind blowing and ego building... And I find it interesting that some men have shared that they know their sig other would never ever find out somehow makes it easier to make that choice...of why the h*ll just not go for it.... and then sadly enough they too start living a lie....sigh!!! I guess the word honor no longer means anything and that is just pain sad to me.
In short - what I have gathered is their are many many people living here in Asia that are living "the lie" the sad part is they believe it to be real... and people I am talking about the parties that are in committed relationships not the singles....this doesnt apply to you in the sense that I mean.
How will you choose the next time you are in that moment?
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In know men who don't cheat and are not christians.
And I am one of them. Does not make me holly or good. I am just saying it to dispell the myth that all western men are messing around.
There is more temptation here admitedly.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
It seems my "out-spoken" statement has offended many Asain ladies in this website. I do apologize for that. I m still scratching my head that which part I wrote had directed to ALL asain women. True that I don't believe women who would go for attached men are anyway sweet and nice in heart except that they may appear to be that way to make their advanture easier because they know most attached guys don't go for the difficult ones.
Not try to be hollier than whoever. Just try to help the people who are fighting hard to keep their relationship and marriage together in Asia, no matter they are from Asia or not. No nationality is better than others but can't help to wonder why some local women only go for expat guys.
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Sicn, the problem I had with your post is that you singled out Asian women to attack and criticise. Not all expat men cheat with Asian women ALONE, some cheat with Caucasian women. And not ALL expat men cheat. And I am sure Chinese men cheat too. It's the constant hammering on Asian women that really annoyed me.
"can't help to wonder why some local women only go for expat guys":
For every single person, there is going to be a different reason. Why not ask every single one that has told you so instead of wondering about coming up with a generalised answer that should fit all as that will be pure generalisation.
I have to say though, over the past few years, I have seen a growing sense of hostility among Caucasian women in HK to local women. I thought it was me who stepped on someone in the street without knowing it before I saw some postings. But having read some of the postings on this site, it reminds me of what my ex (british) once said, "The local guys stare at us with hostility in their eyes when they see us going out wth a local girl. They think we are taking their women away." I now know what is going on.
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I would say.. sometimes, despite all the best intentions, fate still rules. so dont get too stressed out defining what is right and wrong. There is absolutely no right and wrong answers on what to do and what not to do. Keep your cool. things happen when they are to happen.
most men, esp in their mid age tend to go astray. but the general rule of thumb: if it is still YOU whom he come home to, dont fret about it. keeo your cool, dont nag, stay secure, bec it is you who he truly loves.
But yes, stay happy, stay beautiful inside and out, stay secure and confident. always ;)
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tpol
15 yrs ago
hoyo,
I think it is quite common now seeing Western men with Asian women. In Australia, it is becoming more and more common.
Yes, the couple are a tad more noticeable, but it's not that big a deal. I think a Western Woman and Asian males seems more noticeable nowadays.
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tpol
Perhaps you see more of them now.
But I have to agree with hoyo on this occassion.
If Asian women are cheating with Asian men (probably the biggest cohort of cheaters) we would not notice. We are not part of that social circle.
If one of our cirlce (expat) is cheating it is more likely to be with a local girl, becuase there are more of them. That does not mean expats don't fool around with expats.
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Loyd Grossman is Miss Venezuela, sorry if it came off that way. was not my intent. In fact my point was I have only met men here that have shared honestly with me that they have cheated here because it is easy to do so, easier then their home countries for some reason, and the only men i have met that havent were the Christian men... I would love to hear from the men who are not Christian that don't cheat and how they stay sane with all the temptation...
Also I find it fasinating that alot (not all) of these friends that cheat have no intention of ever leaving their wives and families. They say it is just sex and means nothing...somehow I believe them....
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sicn
15 yrs ago
I agree with glowingesperasza’s observation. It is a decision from your soul. It is much easier for someone who has a soul discipliner—God to help them make the right choice. Can a nonreligious person have the same kind of discipline? I’ll say yes, maybe, I don’t know… Without the clear distinction between right and wrong, plus there is no “real benefit” of doing the right thing, How can you be so sure? Nowadays, I have hard time trust anyone without a reliable lie-detector, especially that person had been caught lying before.
What is the guarantee of a person’s integrity since you can hardly mention it or traditional value or morality without being labeled as riding high horse or judgmental? Then the other day saw a crowded bar named “Devil’s Advocate”. WTF!
“Once a cheater, always a cheater”, is a pure subjective statement. It means you cheated once; you might or might not cheat again. But for me, I just don’t know any more. Because I remember you said the same thing and it turned out to be a lie.
Something in life you can only have once, like the faith other has in you.
Do I sound like a person being cheated before? haha.. Maybe. Maybe not. But for those who have been victums of cheators, at least you know first hand why not to cheat on your love ones.
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I'm not a Christian, I am not cheating.
You don't need a god in order to have a moral/ethical code.
Or even a bit of rationality and self control.
I could dip my willy where it don't belong. But a short term risky pleasure could easily be paid for with a lifetime of remorse.
What I have with my wife is good. I will admit it is not the hot volcano of lust that it was in the begining. But poping your rocks off is only a very small part of a relationship, only a small part of your total time together.
Being older helps, I am not the seething soup of hormones that I was when I was in my 20s. I am also a lot more rational.
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I am happy for all the families that have not been broken apart by infidelity. I am still recovering from the shock that my husband slept with prostitutes here in Hong Kong. We have a child and were trying to conceive another, something he seemed to be so excited about. He has confessed because he says it was very hard for him to keep this secret. All of his friends and business associates were doing the same but it was the "male code" to never tell (their partners or spouses) They would encourage him and sometimes pay up front for him. I must say that I am at the lowest point I have ever been in my life. I never thought this was ever possible. We were so very close and happy. It is really out of character for my husband and now I am questioning everything I have always believed. We have both taken every possible test for STDs and HIV. What really upsets me is that this selfish act has broken my family apart. I am torn when I think of my son not being around his father that he absolutely adores but I feel repulsed and disgusted when I look at him. Is there anyone out there who has survived such a situation and moved on happily? Is there hope or am I wasting time? I am educated and not bad looking (judging from the frequent stares) and my son nor I will suffer financially from a separation.
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Starrysky
As you said, it is out of charachter and he is full of remorse, hence the confession.
If also sounds a bit like he was lead astray by work colleagues, who maybe had a bit of fun corrupting him.
I know you find the idea of your husband with a prosititure disgusting, and I know this will be small consellation. He was not with a girlfriend, there was not emotional attachment, he was not looking to replace you, nor has he sought an affair of the heart.
What your husband did was wrong, but it is possible to forgive. It won't be easy, it will take a lot of time, and your relationship will never be the same again. But it is possible to pull through this. Others have.
It might be an idea to Google articles on 'getting over' such problems. It might also be an idea to get some proffessional advice from marriage guidance counselors, I am sure they have heard it all before.
There will be some people on here (mostly women) who will insist you divorce him instantly. There are others who will rant about unforgivable behaviour. Nice rhetoric, but there is much more at stake here than dogma. Be careful of some of the advice you get given on here.
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Thank you all for the constructive advice. It is my intention as of now to try to work things out but I cannot make any promises for the future. My husband is a good man. I hope my broken heart will heal with time and we can move on to better things. Life is short and I do not want to waste my time making him "pay" for what has happened. I think we both do not deserve that. I just don't know if I am strong enough to forgive him and love him...the totally unadulterated way that I did before.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Starrysky, glad that you come to terms with that. I agree with most Iwilltry said.
I have seen marriage survived through much worse. At least your husband shows strong will to undo what he had done wrong. It takes courage and integrity to confess things like that. Some men would lie to their graves. For that you have to give your husband some credit even though what he did is absolutely wrong. .
The type of happily ever after, effortless marriage only exists in fairy tale. If we give up at the very first sight of hardship, we will end up wasting much of our lives chasing the unrealistic images we created in our minds. Marriage needs a lot of work. You probably hear that many times. But you probably never thought getting over this is part of the “work”. Sadly, but true, this is the “dirty part” that nobody would tell you in their wedding toast.
Right now you are going through a stage of shock, hurt and anger. It is normal. This kind of emotional trauma is similar to physical injury. You hurt, you healed. Some people healed but left scars and some healed and became stronger. I hope you are the last one. Seek professional help if you feel the need. Very important to involve your husband to cope with it together. Just remember: bad things happen for the reason of better things ahead. Nothing is as bad as it seems.
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