I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and I do everything I can to learn from the mistakes of others and myself. But the question always lingers.
How does something good end up so bad?
Now, don't get me wrong, this is not about me. This is just about my observations of people I know, care about, who are currently in horrendous marriages, saddled with kids, saddled with debt, hating each others guts, not getting any sex, but the one common thing I hear is, "I live for my kids, they are enough love for me right now".
Sad thing is, is this a common thing? Do so many people stay married still, even in this day and age, to someone who they loathe the sight of and wish would never touch them?
It makes me sad, thats all. And I have gone from trying to be supportive in making someone strong to leave...to simply being an ear while someone stays put. *SMH*
Please, discuss, and add to it your own personal bits of life-experience-observations.
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I think it boils down to one or all of the following:
1. Taking the other person for granted
2. Putting your own needs first and ignoring those of the other person, and refusing to listen or change
3. Becoming turned off by the things you found attractive in the beginning of the relationship (an outgoing spouse becomes annoying and embarrassing; a quieter spouse becomes boring, etc) and worse, you criticize the other person for these qualities, even though they were like this when you married them.
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as2012 - definitely, the bottling up of issues that bother you and the pushing it down, that is not a good place to be, coz the bottle ends up being more of a sparkling wine bottle and the more you shake it the more likely its going to pop!
I wonder though, the whole "family there" thing, how over rated it really is. I mean, in the cases I have seen, a lot of the time, that family wasn't that awesome to begin with but then when apart, it becomes the one place they run to, as if staying and working on the family you have is not more important.
The other extreme is when you depend on your family, pour out your problems to them and then they take your side and slowly begin to loathe your partner. This has happened to a fair few I know, and then they end up in a position where they feel worse because they now have to deal with the expectations of their family. Its a no win situation really.
VB - Definitely, taking someone for granted, not saying thank you anymore because you believe its a given...being selfish, well...its a matter of how you look at it, I guess. In many cases, I hear this line, "I feel cheated"
Like, you married one person and you thought you knew them, and I hear this a lot from men, but I bet the sentiment is the same with women, the disappointment that they are not the person they set out as, well...that sets in.
And yes, before marriage, the drinking loudmouth was just a fun party animal, but after marriage they are the embarrassment you have to ensure to leave a party with before it gets out of hand. Its still the same person, as you say, just more embarrassing now that you see them for what/who they are.
Sadly, a lot of people out there are dealing with the alcoholic spouse, and the messed up thing is that someone with substance abuse issues, or gambling problems, or serial cheating, they won't change unless they make that choice themselves. Simply asking them to change and hoping for the best, its simply not good enough.
One more issue: Marriage counseling
More and more, I see couples where the wife wants the husband to go to marriage counseling, but then when the time comes, the wife says she hasn't got the time, OR when the time comes and she has to hear the husbands reasons for what he is lacking in the marriage, the wife gets all upset and the husband has to sit there fearing the wife "getting depressed". Like all that was wanted was a validation of ones opinion that the other is in the wrong. Also another thing worth discussing.
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It’s a predictable progression from the dying romance to married hell
Stage I - death of romance
- Men who go to great lengths to woo their partner, then treat them like dirt after wedding.
- Random acts of kindness and romance that stop after the wedding.
- Spending time with your partner before the wedding, but afterwards it becomes about yourself.
- Women who take care of their appearance and then “let themselves go” after the wedding.
- Women who seduce the man with tantalizing sex, and then lose all interest after marriage.
After this, the rot sets in- Stage II
- The man starts to go elsewhere for sex (he isn’t getting satisfied at home)
- The woman puts her focus on the kids, and ignores her husband
- Resentment builds
The comes stage III - Hell
- Woman finds man cheating - says it’s all his fault, he destroyed their happy marriage
- Man beats Wife
- Wife beats Husband & Children
- Husband finds 3rd child is not his
- Alcoholism
The root causes are straight forward, but no one talks about them -
(1) People’s heads have been filled with rubbish -
Men have been promised non stop, steaming hot sex by pornography.
Women have been promised the gallant, hansom stranger by all the bodice ripping lit.
Both are rotten and destroy marriages with unrealistic expectations.
(2) People put so much focus on finding someone, and having a perfect wedding ceremony, they lose sight of the fact that the wedding is not the marriage. They are focused on the wrong thing. So they marry the wrong person for the wrong reasons.
(3) A lot of people suddenly stop working on the relationship after the wedding. Now I’m wedded, I can relax, and move to slobsville.
If couples would keep acting like they were courting throughout their marrage, much of this would never happen.
Most marriage counselors deal with what is presented - the behavior, not the underlying causes. They rarely get into the deep issues.
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Why do men keep getting married? It makes no sense at all...
Men think that they will get more exclusivity if they get married... false
Men think they wont have to worry about getting sex anymore... false
Marriage is not the culprit.
The culprit is the compulsive need to get married to someone you don't even really LIKE that much.
Most of the guys who are b!tching about how f*cked they got in marriage and subsequently divorce are guys who ignored a litany of red flags and figured they'd "better snag a woman while the getting's good" because they were AFRAID OF BEING SINGLE.
NEVER EVER, EVER marry for fear of being single. If you do ... be prepared for what you'll get because divorce is such a raw deal for men in the first place.
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"The best time to get divorced is when you have nothing --- no kids, no property. He takes the CD player. She takes the TV. And they drive away in their leased car."
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Well, it's hard to create a balance between all the factors involved...finances, children, demands of work, other people, hobbies, sex, personal expectations and personal demons. Easier said than done!
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Its more a question of why does it end up so bad for some. And the answer is simply not being compatible in the first place.
Too many times marriages are based on hope.. a hope that all those things you know that are not working will miraculously disappear or resolve themselves... and more often than not they wont.
It is so sad to see when marriage turns into a prison for both, and really brings out the dark side of mankind. That said' ive seen plenty of happy marriages... its not all bad.
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ltse
12 yrs ago
"I live for my kids, they are enough love for me right now".
this statement is very irresponsible, why do parents often make their kids the guilty ones for staying in an unhappy relationship? I mean instead of man up and leave, they project the guilty onto their kids as if their kids ever had a say in this.
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Amen to rob about the happy marriages and the fact that they do exist...but they are few and far between...most of the folks I know are not married, even though that has not stopped them from having kids together and sharing a life together. Marriage no longer has the standing it did back when my parents were young...and mind, most of my fathers buddies are all divorced and with much younger girlfriends, its only my parents who are stacking in the decades, clocking in at nearly 45 years together now! Not all of them have been great, but I look at them and see what "weathering the storm" means and I do believe they are still in love and relatively happy to hang out together.
itse - yes, it may sound irresponsible, BUT - lets take example (a) my brother.
He's married to a Japanese woman, they have 2 kids. Now, in case you didn't know, Japan is one of the few countries with no treaties regarding child custody. If his wife buggers off with the kids when they get divorced, he may never see them again. Ever.
So yeah, you can see where a man can say something like this. Too often people overlook fathers and their connection to their children. I understand that women carry their babies for 9 months and that dads, come divorce time, end up being treated like nothing more than glorified sperm donors, but its more than that and we all know it. Dads have as much love and heart invested into their young as mothers do, so its hard for a mother when she has to fear losing her child, but its also hard for a father to fear losing his child.
Much as we think people can divorce and think "in the best interests of the child" it only rarely turns out that way. The kids end up being used as pawns and the parents turn to hating each other so much that it becomes hard to see whats best for their kids. Whichever way you look at it, the kids end up in the middle of a failed or failing relationship. But sometimes staying together for the kids, even though in the past I used to "bah" that, I can understand it now.
My Hong Kong - thats so true, balance...very hard to find, but not impossible if one ensures to water all those plants every time and not merely when they notice its leaves are going brown or starting to wilt.
songyu - lol, yeah, those were the days. Nowadays its scary that the more you acrue, the more you have to lose. But the sentiment is still there, if you were willing to give up all your "stuff" then it wouldn't be that hard to walk away while letting the other take it all. At least you will have your sanity back.
CaptDave - I agree, if couples would still act as though they were courting, then they may see things working out better, BUT - its hard to act like you still have stuff to learn about your partner once you have been together a number of years and about the only mystery you have left is that you refuse to let them see you taking a crap! And kids, lovely little farts they are, but they can help kill romance a bit, lol.
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Reality is, the dynamics of a relationship change with time, and instead of people mourning about the loss of that special feeling, they have to learn to love the feelings and people they are becoming. The evolving of the relationship is an organic process, it doesn't happen overnight (although I have heard some people complain that it did, but maybe they just weren't as in tune with the NOW).
To grow together, to give each other enough space to still BE while still taking the time to meet each others needs...thats important. Too many people complain about their needs not being met and then kinda claim the reason they are not meeting someone elses needs is a matter of some kind of strike!
My sister-in-law bought a book "His Needs Her Needs" and so my brother thought, hell yeah, she is finally reading something about how to help save this marriage, and I told him, you're an idiot, you are too thick to see she bought that book so she could leave it around for YOU to read!
*SMH*
But in the book, it would only need for her to read until page 10 or something to see what steps she could take to mending their marriage, but this was the gist of it:
His Needs Her Needs List: Men's Needs
1. Sexual Fulfilment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. An Attractive Spouse
4. Domestic Support
5. Admiration
His Needs Her Needs List: Women's Needs
1. Affection
2. Conversation
3. Honesty and Openness
4. Financial Commitment
5. Family Commitment
Its like, if you put those in a list of 10, the men's basics are on one end of the spectrum and the womens on the other...so the best chance would be for them to try to meet each other somewhere along that spectrum, right?
Thoughts...(from women and men, about the list)
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And what do you do about a marriage that has everything -- love, affection, admiration, attractive spouse, pride for each other, conversation, support, companionship, family liking, honesty kind of too.... but no sex.
No it is not a prison and yet the man cheats, even falls in love with another person.... but obviously never leaves his marriage -- the known devil is better than an unknown one after all. That is the wise man who does not want to marry again and again....
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That top 10 list is pretty accurate! Points one and two in particular would most likely be on the opposite sides of the spectrum for men and woman.
For most men the companionship part usually involves spending small amounts of quality time together, while for most woman its usually the opposite. Men need space, and women need the conversation/companionship mentioned. Finding some kind of balance between the two is the key.
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The list looks right.
In some parts of the world where the women are further down Maslow's hierarchy, you need to elevate Financial commitment a bit higher.
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CaptDave - good one bringing up Maslow's hierarchy, my psychology brain was way too rusty, I had to google that one! Do you mean that in some countries where being poor is the norm, someone providing financial stability would be a real bonus?
naughtyatforty - well, regarding your question: "And what do you do about a marriage that has everything -- love, affection, admiration, attractive spouse, pride for each other, conversation, support, companionship, family liking, honesty kind of too.... but no sex."
I know what you are saying about "better the devil you know than the devil you don't". Many folks stay in a marriage because of the kids, because they feel they are over the hill and don't want to go through the dating thing again, but I think you'd have to be kidding yourself when you say that having everything else but no sex (which means you have a hubby who is cheating and falling in love all over the place) equates to a happy life.
If you were to ask anyone what they want in life, what would really make their life worth every moment, it would be happiness. Some people devalue this whole "happiness thing" because they are scared of what the option is, or they are scared of being alone.
I think, its been said and said some more...better to be alone and happy than with someone who makes you feel alone and unhappy.
If someone is staying in a relationship that makes them unhappy, its a matter of what I call, the inability to choose whether to s*** or get off the pot. They can't have both. Do one thing or the other. Staying means you simply sit, sit, and sit some more...going nowhere.
WonTonNom - recreational companionship means someone to go on holiday with, head out camping with, cycling, or at least to support their hobbies. I think, many women don't bother with going skiing or wakeboarding...or they prefer to be total home bodies...and this wont work in the long run, not with a man who is more social and active.
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''I think, its been said and said some more...better to be alone and happy than with someone who makes you feel alone and unhappy.''
But this is exactly where the problem is!!!
Being alone does not go hand in hand with being happy! Friends and activities are all good, but there is still a need for a partner. However, when you are on your own...at least you have a chance to meet someone.
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Indeed, My Hong Kong. But the key here is to LEARN to enjoy your own company, not merely tolerate it. To learn to be happy and whole by yourself, and not focus merely on the fact you are this "ALONE" person.
I know plenty of single and 40 somethings who have come to terms with the fact they may never get into a relationship and they have made their peace with it...and they would never, in a million years, classify themselves as ALONE.
Some people really can't stand their own company, and if that is the case, how is someone else going to stand it either?
As you said, if you are single at least that opens you up to possibilities. You will not have those possibilities if you were with someone you'd rather not be with.
The thing is, too many people waste their best years dating the wrong person and then realize too late that they wasted those years. And I say this for all those women (because its usually women) who got stuck into that married guy or separated guy who claimed he would never get back with his wife...or the guy who said he was just waiting for the right time before deciding on marriage or kids...or that guy who was simply looking for another mother...
Oh sure, you can still find someone later in life, but it becomes a little harder and maybe the pickings are a bit slimmer (in this day and age, it means you will get a man, or woman, with baggage of divorce, kids, etc...)
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I was married for 25 years and I know where things started to go wrong. We were a struggling family and my husband was obsessed with hobbies, which were extremely expensive, and he resented his family. We were the ones who spent his money. We once had a huge row because although we could barely make ends meet he wanted to take out a loan of £5k so he could take flying lessons. He accused me of ruining his life.
He made me get a job when my daughter was quite young and amusingly I became more successful then him. He would tell all of his friends how proud he was of me but belittle me in private.
During arguments he made his arguments personal, he couldn’t stick to what the argument was about and he would insult me. After listening to the insults sex became a hurdle. Why would I want to have sex with a man who thought horrible things about me? I am a strong person, but he ground me down. The dichotomy was other men found me attractive but I believed that my husband didn’t. I exercised, dieted, looked after myself but my husband never told me I looked good. After sniping comments he wanted to go to bed and for me to ‘perform’. He was genuinely shocked when I didn’t want him. I tried to explain to him that by being nice just might have a better result. I eventually became cold and unresponsive.
At one stage his best friend was stalking me and it was our son who was 17 at the time who had words with the guy, as I was so upset, but my husband didn’t want to lose his friend.
I realise looking back that the writing was on the wall for a long time, but leaving him seemed extreme.
He asked for a divorce, we agreed and led separate lives whilst sharing a house. I moved over here and during the packing he cried and confessed he didn’t want me to go.
My new husband (together for 10 years) is attentive, kind, generous and amazing. He does things, which stop me in my tracks, as I have never experienced such a loving environment. He is a normal person who has moods etc but he never takes things out on me. We respect each other.
I agree, many women do go off sex after marriage, but take a moment to consider how you have spoken to her or how you have treated her. When dating you are both attentive whereas after the initial romance both have a tendency to give up.
She doesn’t feel appreciated and neglects her appearance and he neglects her so sex becomes non-existent.
I am not blaming one person, both have responsibility after all it is a partnership.
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Wow, that was so well put. Thank you for sharing. Indeed, no one person is to blame, but I agree, when a woman stops responding or being intimate, there is something poisonous that made the plant whither and die in the first place.
Also, hurrah for you being out of the cold and into the sun. Sounds like you are in a good place now, and I guess its a good lesson to share with others that there is life after misery. Sounds like your ex was one of those folks who need to make others feel bad in order to feel good about themselves. Many of those out there!
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I don't believe men understand how flippant remarks can cut to the quick. My first husband always said, 'I didn't mean it, don't take things so seriously'. During an argument I never said anything I didn't mean, I didn't think he did either!
He only seemed to try to make me feel bad. I think he resented his 'good years' trapped with a family. We actually get on better now that we live on different continents!
I would also pass on a piece of advice for male readers, if a woman is having a 'down day' not necessarily 'miserable' but no make up, sloppy clothes, then attempting sex is probably not going to succeed. All she will be thinking is 'my hair is a mess, my legs need waxing etc' if she doesn't feel attractive to herself, she won't enjoy intimacy as she will be thinking how horrible she looks. Don't take it personally, she wants to look sexy for you!
Equally, if she looks good, take advantage, it's for you!
On the other hand, I believe women need to make the effort. I know some women who profess sex is a chore. That must make her husband feel very shabby. if you don't make him feel like the most amazing man on earth, there is always a woman who will.
Marriage is something to work at, if you don't want to, then get the hell out. Life is way too short to be trapped and miserable.
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smh
other options are SMDH or SMMFH...thats getting full on ghetto though.
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