His kids from his first marriange are not that old yet and need their father as much as your own kids. Asking him to choose is not really fair to them or to him. You seem to be coming back to HK in order to escape - in which case my guess is your marriage is going to be doomed rather than getting better. I think if you really want to save what you have, staying in the USA will give your family less pressure and more time to work on the marriage. Coming to HK to work on your marriage is not a good idea for some of the reasons that you mention as well as time pressures, school pressures, alienation, resentment, etc.
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I agree with Philly Cheese. From what you have shared, the only reason you are pushing to come back to HK is to be closer to your support network of family and friends... but having lived in the U.S. for 16 years I would guess you would at least have a support network made up of your friends?
Put yourself in your husbands position. He has 2 older children who need him as a father. That is the most important. Currently he has a stable job and you possibly have a home mortgage aswell. If he likes his job and the people he works with, there is the unknown of coming to Hong Kong and starting a new job, culture, and living environment for him. This would further place more stress on your marriage even if he does not sample the "candy store".
HK can be very expensive especially if you are used to the space and lifestyle of the U.S. eg house vs apartment / having a car vs public transport etc
Staying in the U.S. and working out your problems and differences would have a higher chance of saving your marriage then moving to Hong Kong where additional stresses and possible temptations will inevitably creep in to weaken your marriage.
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Agree with above three posters. Definitely the signals you are sending out are not those of committment and willingness to stay the course. Why not fly out your family on a brief holiday to alleviate your homesickness, or take up a hobby, learn something new, get a new sense of purpose? Evaluate what you can do first to change things before expecting circumstances or somebody else to make you happier - it won't.
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I think it's too late to save this marriage. You have to focus on happiness for you and your children, and you all seem happiest in HK. Next time, don't marry a divorced guy or one who you know has "yellow fever", as you mentioned he has. Living in areas like Shatin in the New Territories or in Tung Chng is probably cheaper than living in California.
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Forgive me for saying this but your marriage isn't doomed - it's on life support and you're about to pull the plug. For goodness sakes, you've basically given your husband an ultimatum without actually saying the words - and please forgive me again but that's what it sounds like when you say that no matter what you're moving to HK and he can either come or not (you've even stated your intentions towards divorce proceedings - not a good sign of willingness to work on the relationship!!!) I also agree with most of the posters on this thread - that what you're doing is largely about securing your own personal happiness and comfort at the expense of your marriage and your family. Yes it would be wonderful for your children to be closer to your family and support network but don't you think that however badly they might be treated by their paternal grandparents that to live half a world away from their father is much much worse! And a side note on the paternal grandparents issue - obviously they have picked the side of the ex-wife and not yours. You need to get over this - you are not going to change their mind. Is it a tragedy, of course, and no it is certainly not normal to not want to be a part of your grandchildren's lives but railing endlessly against it is not going to magically change them into what you want them to be. I'm sure your children know that it's not them and they know that they have a loving and wonderful family regardless. I know I'm rambling a bit but the point I really wanted to make is, from the sound of it, you are not trying to save this marriage - you have already emotionally checked out and are now looking for the best options for YOUR future. If you really still love your husband and want to keep your family together I would strongly reconsider relocating here. Hope this has helped in some way - all the best!
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Have you ever tried to sit down and talk to his parents, to ask them why they won't accept you? You're right: your husband should have stood up for you in the first (and middle and last) place. At the same time, he's torn. For all their bad behaviour, these are the people who gave birth to him, who fed him and clothed him and played with him and raised him to be the person he is today. That's the person you love, so obviously they didn't do a bad job.
Presumably, then, he loves his parents for all their faults and sins as you likely hope your kids will love you throughout their lives. Maybe, instead of giving him a "them or me" choice, you can sit down and figure out a plan to break the ice and start fresh, on a better footing, with them. Since they've only ever met you a few times, they don't really even know you. Maybe there are issues regarding "their baby boy", his past relationship, other experiences, things you don't know about that are colouring their perceptions.
Hope things work out for you, since it sounds like, underneath it all, you both want it to work.
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Yep -- your marriage is definitely doomed as you come across as rather immature and selfish.
Come-on, since when did grandparents gain precedence over a parent?? Your kids definitely need their dad more! Just stop bothering if the paternal gparents do not care. I think you're expending too much of your energy on it! And no doubt you've to keep in my mind that you're probably not their first choice, which you knew from even before the marriage (evident in your last post).
The kids can definitely visit the maternal side once a year. That is enough. Most expat families are in similar situation around the world! They do not have either side of the grandparents with them through the year/life!!
You don't consider leaving your spouse for the sake of being close to your family. Then you should not have married him in the first place.
I get a feeling that you're only looking for reasons to end your marriage. As most posters feel here, you've already decided to leave your husband, you're now trying to rationalise it.
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Hi
Why not relocate for a couple of years with your husband and arrange for the older children to visit you all and the Chinese side of the family.
I agree though that you are trying to intellectualise your situation. Did you marry for love?
Many people do have uninvolved in-laws (some prefer it this way!) and not-so-perfect grandparents (or none at all)
If you no longer love your husband this is a central issue.
Your comment about 'yellow fever' is a bit of a stereotype. Sounds like you want your husband to go off with someone else, then you can blame him for your break-up and write him out of the story?
Take stock of what you have now, stop wondering what might happen, that depends on your decisions partly and you cannot avoid responsibility for your own choices.
good luck -grass is not greener on the other side.
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Conversely to many of the people who have posted before me I have a different opinion, perhaps because I'm male, perhaps because I'm a white guy married to a Chinese girl, perhaps my values & thought processes are different to others or that I'm not a father - just don't know why but here goes....
My story is that I met my wife in Europe where we were both working (in different countries) & got together, stayed a few years in a comfortable life (decent house, nice surroundings, stable jobs etc) but my girl (later to become my wife) decided she wanted to get back to Hong Kong for a whole host of reasons including many that you've mentioned & some others that I thought were of zero consequence. However I wasn't given an ultimatum but merely told that once her contract was up in about 5 months she wanted to go 'home' & she'd like me to go with her! At the time I couldn't think of any reason to leave my well paid job, lifestyle & nice new car but she wanted to go. After the 5 months were up I stayed behind & lets just say I wasn't particularly happy on my own & took the decision (one that seemed irresponsible & downright stupid at the time) to leave - acquired a job, not as senior or well paid as the old one, did the visa thing & I've been here for 10 years. My wife is happy, my life is a bit more stressful than I'd like but it was well worth the risk.
How does this relate to your problem? Well it seems that if you want to go 'home' then your husband needs to come to terms with it & deal with it. I understand he has children from a previous marriage who bind him to the USA but he needs to choose his priorities in his life, you are his wife & have had his children & that should count for something. I know this may seem cruel & harsh to many people here but I think you need to do what you think is best for you & your children & I think your husband should do the same, I realise he has another family from a previous relationship but that you & your children need to be his no. 1 concern & if they aren't then its all doomed to failure. As for all of the comments that you knew he had a previous marrage & children equally he knew that you were a foreigner when he married you & should have taken that into consideration as well.
As to whether all of this & the other posters opinions are good, bad or otherwise is down to your judgement of the situation. As for the temptations & yellow fever issues, I don't think its very much different overseas, certainly in Europe lots of people I worked with were having extra marital relationships in the same way it happens in HK, Singapore et al.
Best wishes for the future whatever you decide.
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Martin, your situation is not the same - no kids and not yet married. She's also been in the US for 16 years and not on a job assignment, so she should have a much wider network of friends.
Economics between local and expat is vastly larger in HK than "home", so more choice for Expats.
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Philly Cheese, agreed situation is different & I'm certainly no expert.
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Moving to another country can only bring more stress on an already troubled marriage. If you think that a new environment will help your marriage situation, think again. Just because you have an emotional support system handy doesn't mean that ending a marriage is any easier. Ask yourself why you're really considering coming back. Is it:
1) To improve marriage - in which case more stress you don't need as stated above
2) To brace yourself for breakdown of marriage - in which case a handy emotional support system is good for you and kids
3) To escape from your problems in CA - your baggage will come with you, no matter where you go, only now, you have more stress from moving to a new place with your family
As for moving to HK from States, I tell you, it's a big stress and I'm speaking from my own experience. Polluted air ( you and kids will get sick a lot), no place for kids to run, small apartments at exorbitant prices, very stressful education system (lots and lots of homework for you and your kids even in international schools), and yes, you are right. They are many many many temptations for guys to stray. Yes, they can stray in CA as well, but here, it's candyland. There is very little social stigma that comes with cheating if your H is not one with strong convictions, he WILL be tempted. Lots of girls here have no qualms about married guys and other guys don't ever openly frown on other cheating husbands. If you're worried about fidelity in CA now, then don't come here.
However, if you've already decided to end your marriage and want to build a new life, then by all means come and be with your support system, your family and your friends. Otherwise, stay put and work on your marriage, girl. It's wrong to stay in a marriage only for the sake of the kids. BUT you have a duty to STAY HAPPY in a marriage for the sake of your family. So work on BEING HAPPY TOGETHER.
I sincerely hope you find your happiness.
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I'm really glad to hear that you have "a full-time living nanny who love my kids as her own", because it may scare the hell out of your kids if she was only alive part of the time...
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cd
16 yrs ago
Just to disagree with a point positivelymommy said, your kids will not neccessarily get sick, my kids have been brought up here and are the healthiest kids I know, only get sick once in a blue moon, that goes for me too. The schools here are excellent, much better than the schools my kids would be going to in the UK, There are decent sized properties to live in if you live out of town, there's also plenty of space to run around if you live out of town, not to mention swimming and sports.
Not that that helps your decision, just to let you know that for some of us things are better here than in our 'own' countries.
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How old is your husband? Since he's got 4 kids and a previous marriage I'll assume he's at least late 30's or early 40's. Is this really a great age for an American guy from Cali to move to HK? If he was from NYC and used to apartment life already... maybe. But take it from me, I'm from the western USA and grew up with big houses, big yards and big cars. Adjusting to apartment life in Hong Kong and Macau is a huge pain, BEFORE you even get into the language/cultural barrier and lack of space for the kids.
You were brave to move to the USA but you did it as a young adult with no major commitments. The adjustment was much easier for you than it will be for him. You propose to make him choose between his two set of kids. If he goes, enormous stress will ensue.
You seem to have a great life. Two healthy kids, nice house, household help and plenty of time as a family. Is this really going to improve in HK? I don't think so. Is your husband a good man? Does he beat you or cheat on you? Are your kids happy? Do they have any problems other than lack of grandparents (sucks but honestly it's not that big a deal). I know there's more to your problem than what you've let on but believe me, some people have it much much worse than you. I think you should maybe count your blessings rather than run away.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
Agree totally with b-thinky!
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Hi huash1,
I personally support you to have your 2 kids gat back to HK. If you are able to have the step-kids too.
You ( and kids ) can start your new life in HK.
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sicn
16 yrs ago
Huash1,
I was in the same situation tried to do the same thing to save my marriage and live a happier life. It failed. And I didn't have any kid.
So please re-consider your dicision carefully.
Best wishes to you.
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I obviously don't know your family or your children, but I don't think they'll like moving to Hong Kong. Visiting and living are completely different. Your kids are not going to enjoy living with your parents, or living in a small space after that. If your husband comes, he will not enjoy looking for a job or not having one. This could completely backfire on you and your family may end up resenting you for it.
In my opinion, when you moved to the USA and married an American guy and had American kids, you committed yourself to life in the USA. If your marriage is over, so be it, but no need to make matters worse by separating the kids from their father. If you're determined to get a divorce, the go through with it and get a place in California.
Americans and Chinese often have different ideas of family. We Americans tend not to keep very close friends after we're married and consider "family" as spouse and children. Even though most families remain close to their parents/siblings into adulthood, the relationship with the spouse and kids is millions of times more important. When considering his parents' rejection of you and your kids, he probably just figures "their loss."
I'm married to an eastern woman and have to deal with her family constantly. I often feel like I married the entire family and not just her, and sometimes I feel she puts her family before me. Not that any of these people are bad or wrong, we all just have different ideas of family. You should consider it from your husband's point of view.
To be quite honest, I don't see the point in even posting your question here if you do not want to tell the entire situation. Nobody here knows you, if you're afraid of letting your secrets out don't be. Otherwise you're asking a group of strangers for advice without even sharing the entire situation.
Finally, you claim to be all about the kids but are you really? Do you really think it's fun for them to be uprooted from America and taken to Hong Kong away from their father?
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cd
16 yrs ago
Have you actually asked your kids if they want to move to HK or if they'd rather stay in America. There are so many posts on here saying its the worst thing you could do for them, but maybe they really want to come out here, and feel really close and in tune with their HK family.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
I think you have already made up your mind to come back to HK no matter what advices all these good people are giving you. I do sincerely wish you well as you know your situation better than any of us outsiders to have considered this choice.
You must have sufficient reasons of your own to be so courageous to uproot yourself and the 2 children from the States to HK as it's such a BIG MOVE with difficulties & problems ahead. Try to weight the pros and cons again and do whatever you need to do. Good Luck!
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sicn
16 yrs ago
Huash1
Sorry that I didn't have time to share more of my personal experience with you.
I don't want to go too much into the detail. But I completely understand your situation.
But before you make your final decision, please consider the following:
1. Remember why you left HK at the first place.
2. Memory is always better than reality. Things in the distance ususally appear better than close-up.
3. Do you think your family and friends are treating you EXTRA nice because they feel sorry for you thru the story you told them? Once you are one of them, will they still treat you the same. My personal experience, people relationship is relatively simpler in US than in HK.
4. Living standard, working condition in HK is worse than in US.
5. Your inlaws, even your parents are not YOUR family. Your husband and your children are.
6. Do not make such decision base on resentment of anybody outside of your own family.
7. Having the same dream is the only way to keep a loving marriage, not having your own dream.
And the last and most important point: Splitting from your love ones is much much more painful than you can ever imagine.
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Huash1
I think if you really need some help here ,you should tell the reason as flashback said.There are a lot of aspects you have to look at when you decide to move to HK.And if you think the reason that you don't want to share here is most important to you and your family,if you think that there is no way to work it out with your hubby,then I don't see why you should stay in a happy-like marriage but it is't.Sometimes happiness doesn't come from being comfortable materially,it's a state of mind.As you said,you've been in marriage counseling for a year..As you emotionnally opted out ,you want to stay in just for the sake of your kids..Work this out with your hubby..If things don't work..Then move to HK.
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I am commenting because you are not offended by peoples comments.. so here is my 2 cents.
You are being an American while holding onto your cultural way of thinking. If your husband was Asian, would you expect his parents to make the effort to get to know you and their grandkids? Or would you in the hierarchy of elders and being respectful, be the one to get to know them, and make them know THEIR grandkids.
Having said that.. lets think for a moment, that for some reason, his parents (most likely mother) felt slighted by you in some weird un-explainable.. but that is how mother-in-laws can be way. At the end of the day those are your husbands parents, and whether or not we like it, we have to give our significant others parents respect even if we don’t think they deserve it.
For the record, I am American, and trust me.. I have been there and done that. My ex’s mother, when she found out that I was not white, threw the biggest tantrum and my ex’s response was.. “you need to make friends with my mother, because she is my mother”. It took me two years, and I did not even have the cards (which actually work to your advantage) that you have. Kids. When all was said and done, he told me I was “too close” to his mother.
If you plan on TRYING to salvage your marriage then let me make some suggestions to you, as it is NEVER too late.
Start talking to your kids about his parents. Make them inquisitive about them, then have your husband suggest they call them on the phone. Let them talk to them for about 3 minutes, once a week. Simple conversations.. hi Nana, I lost a tooth today.. I played on my bike.. bye! Have your husband take his kids to visit his parents and spend half a day. Let his parents begin to develop a relationship with their grandkids.
Getting to know your kids is not HIS parents responsibility it is the responsibility of the BOTH of you. Growing up I don’t recall my grandparents coming to see us, but I do remember us always having to go to see them. Besides if his parents came over to your house frequently to see the kids, that would probably irritate you because then you would have a meddling mother-in-law critical of what you are doing and how you are raising the kids, and how you are doing things differently from the way they did things.. so you have it good. Imagine.. you have a live in Nanny… who takes care of the kids.. dare I tell you what all a grandmother can say with regards to that alone!
As for developing a relationship with your in-laws.. you need to work on that, and your husband needs to help.. Swallow your pride and call your mother in law and ask her how to make some favourite dish of your husbands that only she knows how to make. Not because you really want to , but to start a dialogue. Call her up and ask for parenting advice.. not because you need to know.. but to start a dialogue and to let her know that you are taking the high ground, and respecting her for who she is to your husband and your kids.
Don’t expect things to happen overnight. Like I said, it took me 2 freaking years.. … Your kids are still young, adorable, and innocent..and their grandparents just need to hear them tell them that they love them, miss them, and want to know when they will get to see them again.
On a side note, if I was your daughter, I would want to go to Hong Kong with mommy too. In Hong Kong, mommy gives me a LOT of her attention, as there is no Nanny to take care of me 24/7, and we get to spend a lot of Chinese time together. Think about it. On top of that you helped develop a relationship (as you should have) with your parents and your kids. What kid does not want to be around people that love them. Out of curiosity, what do they call your husbands parents??
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I'm guessing your husband cheated on you, just like he cheated on his first wife. Your trust is no longer there. By deciding to come back to HK, I think you've given up on this thing ever working out. Maybe a trial separation may make you two want to stay together, although I am skeptical of this happening. Through all of this, I have not heard from you that you still love your husband (or perhaps I missed it as there were a lot of messages).
All the best. You sound like a mature, well-adjusted person. Though harder, I'm sure you will find happiness in HK.
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When we get married and start a family, we never expect the parent/spouse relationships to compete with each other. Unfortunately your husband puts you in this terrible situation in putting your rights as a wife in contrast with his rights as a dad.
So you have to put on two hats here and think clearly with each. The mother hat, which knows all kids need a dad whenever possible, and that all kids deserve to idolize their dad whenever possible; and the wife hat, which wants to have a successful marriage and knows what kind of treatment is required for this to happen.
Here's what I see on both fronts:
WIFE HAT: Based on what I know, your marriage is over and should have been long ago. In fact, I think you made a huge mistake by not "punishing" your husband for bad behavior over the years. If the worst you do is get temporarily angry at him, then he really has no reason to treat you better or show you more respect. And it sets a terrible precedent for future behavior. Imagine your husband saying, "Well, last time I did xxxx AND yyyy and she only made me sleep on the couch for two nights, so this time if I just do xxxx there's no way I'll be in big trouble."
This is how he thinks in his mind and probably how you think in terms of how you'll react to his actions.
You should take back some respect for yourself and kick him out of the house immediately, or move out on your own. Perhaps if he seriously changes and you WANT him back someday, it can be worked out. But not now.
Believe me, I know how hard this is. But unfortunately for you, it's the easy part.
MOTHER HAT: Regardless of how bad a husband he is or how broken your marriage is, he apparently did nothing bad to your kids and your kids obviously don't deserve to be punished with the loss of their father.
COMBINED HATS: you know as a wife the marriage is over. Stop even pretending it's not or that there is hope for the future. You need to act to end the marriage. But as a mother, you need to salvage the kids relationship with the father. Does that occur best if you're living in HK or LA? Probably LA, for now at least.
Maybe you can talk your husband into going to HK and living on his own there. Or maybe your parents can come for an extended stay in LA to help ease your transition.
I think everyone here can see that if you move to HK you're not going to go back to LA, so take time to consider the situation and make the best choice for you AND your kids. Hong Kong will always be there for you if you need to go; so don't fool yourself into thinking you must choose between living in HK or staying with your husband, because that's really a false choice.
Finally, just understand this is my opinion based on my own value system and the facts given. Everyone interprets everything differently and I'm not saying my solution is best for everyone. It's just the one I'd choose if I saw the facts as presented in this case.
So this is why your dilemma is so difficult. You have to set all the anger and feelings YOU have towards the man and replace them with the feelings of your kids, who still want and need a dad.
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Okay, that's a no-brainer decision. Come back to HK. Your personal relationship is not longer a harmonious one. He doesn't respect you as a person. A tool for his sex drive. This doesn't make him a model for his 4 children at all. A piece of drunken junk.
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If you take the kids to HK, make sure to get your husband's consent or do whatever is necessary to have legal custody of the kids and the right to take them to HK on a permanent basis. Otherwise it could turn out ugly.
Your husband might want to divorce you just as bad as you do him. In his twisted mind, he probably resents you for preventing him from having sex as much as he wants. He might look at HK as a place with lots of "affordable" means of feeding his addiction. If not to live there, then to visit often. As for the alcoholism, HK is probably a safer place just because of the MRT and he wn't be driving himself.
But no matter the case I don't think you should live with the guy anymore.
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Huash1
I do feel for you because this case appears particularly nasty now we have a better idea of the specific issues & I think that most posters would agree that you have been through more than enough. My personal advice would be to kick him out but on the basis you really want to get away then coming back home to HK is best but I would add a word of caution - I'm not a Lawyer but there is something called the Hague Convention (1980) I think that's the year, which has an impact upon the legality of leaving the USA with your children, this convention has been ratified by both USA & HKSAR so it is potentially enforceable. I suggest you speak to a Family Law Solicitor in HK before you & your children get on the aeroplane, if you don't it could be used to discredit you in future divorce proceedings & / or custody hearings.
Forget all of those earlier posters who said stick with your husband etc, physical violence is totally unacceptable & you should get out in any possible manner just make sure whatever you do is legal otherwise your husband will be able to employ a slick lawyer to get whatever he wants.
Best of luck.
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question: sorry may out of topic but I happen to stumble upon this statement and wondering if its true or not
In Hong Kong , a betrayed wife
is legally allowed to kill her
adulterous husband, but may only
do so with her bare hands.
The husband's illicit lover,
on the other hand, may be killed
in any manner desired.
if its true then HK women are the luckiest
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
apple79 has been commenting nonsense in reply to a few threads and got away with it but I hope she has to understand this particular O.P. is having a really serious problem - so apple79 "please don't make joke on this thread" thank you.
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apple79 has been commenting nonsense in reply to a few threads and got away with it but I hope she has to understand this particular O.P. is having a really serious problem - so apple79 "please don't make joke on this thread" thank you.
:p please accept my apology your highness... its been circulating on friendster and lots of people believing in it!!! okay gotta tell them its not.....
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cd
16 yrs ago
I would try and secure a job before you come to HK, then you and the children come together. Your husband may make it very difficult for you to have the kids if you leave them for a few months.
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I would start looking for a job with an American company with China business and an office over here. Start with their American office and state your intention to move back to HK. Companies like Santa Fe, Crown and other moving companies could use someone with your background. Similarly look for companies like Walmart, Disney and others with China operations.
Housing for three and a helper - you would need something with 3 bedrooms and a helper's room. Looking at 800 sq feet and higher. On the HK Island side this would start at around $18k, and on the Kowloon side, it could be a little cheaper. School for two kids - local schools would be cheaper but will teach in Canotonese. International schools could be $8k per month and up. So you're looking at something like $60k per month and up to live relatively comfortably (not luxurious and xcertainly not to USA levels). This will give you some ideas I hope.
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Ja, Philly Cheese is correct in that finding a position while you are still in the USA would give you the opportunity to negotiate your package on an expatriate basis if you're very lucky but in my experience international corporations are only expatting in very senior people these days. If this fails then your 2nd best avenue would appear to be the global employment agencies who cover your fields - logistics is big business what with HK marketing itself as the Gateway to China. If you come to HK & try to find a job you'll fall into the local market whereby the salaries are kept very low, benefits minimal permissable under law & working hours exceptionally long.
If you're interested in logistics, its not my field, & are unsuccesful in obtaining something whilst still in the USA, I may be able to put you onto some of the larger job agencies here in HK but its very unlikely you'll get as good a package. Incidentally, you mentined the Mandarin teaching option, I used to teach English on a part-time basis about 10 years back, HKD 150/hr but the main earning days were Friday evenings, Saturdays & Sundays when you're children will be home.
It also depends where you want to live - Mid-Levels is very nice but will probably be out of your range unless you have a senior position in a Logistics Co. It also depends where your job is located, if your with a Freight Forwarder you could end up at Kwai Chung or the Airport & then Kowloon or New Territories would probably be more convenient & a good deal less expensive.
Anyhow, if you can't get the specific answers you need then in this Forum send me a message at my asiaxpat address & I'll do my best to help where I can.
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Rent in the New Territories West is ranging from HK$8 to HK$15, lot way more affordable than in Kowloon, not to mention HK Island. A 3 bedroom unit can be around HK$8K to HK$15K per month, depends on the area and age of apartment. There is also a school at Tin Siu Wai teaching in English/Mandarin only which should fit for your children. That should be less than $3K/month per kid. With the West Rail going to Kowloon in less than 30 mins. The new station at Kowloon West should be operative in about 6-9 months. This could be a district you should consider with.
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Yep, I think that HK Parents who are paying say HKD 200-400 per hour want to see a white face teaching their children, even if he / she isn't qualified & the language centres know this. I you could get a job doing this I expect they'd want to pay a significantly lower hourly rate! I know that there are also competency grades for Mandarin tutors & qualifications may be required.
For my opinion as a person who doesn't have children, the school thing is less time critical since your children are still young & could adapt to local schools & will have the opportunity to gain important Cantonese language skills (if they don't have them already), its taken me 6 years of lessons to be able to speak the most basic stuff & still mostly in the wrong tone. However, as someone earlier said getting your children in needs to be carefully timed, to get into HK Government Schools I'm told is quite a lengthy process for a good one & for your 4 year old time may be tight. You'll also need to be creative since some of the application forms are unbelieveable, a few months ago I assisted one of my staff with a pre-school application form regarding the "significant achievements" of her 3 or 4 year old son.
With 3 months you should have time to sort something out but in my experience you may find yourself in a situation where you just need to take any job just to pay the bills & get established & look for a better one later once you're settled. However, without wanting to throw water on the fire, I would anticipate it may take a good deal longer to sort out the immigration of your children, particularly if your husband isn't in agreement or realises he could use this to delay the whole process.
These matters are not often resolved easily & quickly.
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Huash1,
Definitely it's clear the option of moving to HK is the best one..So try to secure a job and then move on.
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I am an expat living here with my husband, since my housing is paid for and my child is not school age yet I cannot give you exact amounts, but I can say it is extreemly expensive to live here and put your children in school.
I think coming to HK is a somewhat selfish decision on your part, as a mom I would not uproot my children hoping for an escape. Seek marriage counseling and work on your marriage, if and when your marriage is strong enough come to HK. If it is never strong enough consider the impact of moving here would have on your children.
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sicn
16 yrs ago
After reading your situation, I still think you need to think very careful about moving your family back to HK. The moving is definately not benefiting your marriage if you still have hope to keep the family together. Work out the marriage or divorce issue first, then consider moving or not. At least the short term financial side will be taken care of by the court or your husband. Moving is not the priority, your marriage is.
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TeachAH: I think her marriage is over unless her husband agrees to get help for his addiction, something he hasn't been willing to do. It may be that separating will be the kick in the head he needs to get that help.
That said, I agree that she should be looking for a job nearby, not thinking of moving to HK. Her kids are equally his kids and his role as their father is equally as important as her role as their mother. She did say he is a very good father.
As an individual, separated from her husband, she can go anywhere and do anything she wants. Having children, unfortunately, immediately restricts that freedom. It is not fair to her kids or their father to separate them from him. She is free to separate herself from them, to break her ties to her kids and go to HK on her own, if she so chooses. The bond between her and her kids is hers' to control, but the bond between her kids and her husband is not.
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I dunno if anyone here is a psych major but correct me if I am wrong....that whole chart of high stress situations...moving house, changing jobs, moving countries...its all up there along with "death of a family member"!
If you think that moving country and house and uprooting your kids all so they can be close to your parents (who by the way will one day die and it will be just you, your kids and your husband who have to make a life worth living), then erm....you have it all back to front.
Sounds to me like you want out and this is your way, posting on here, of guaging how others see your plight. If you want out, you best have a better plan than just "3 months of savings to live on" coz...life here aint easy, and it aint easy to get a job, and it sure as hell sounds a lot easier to say "and I will be happy to share a room with my kids" than it is in reality! Reality of moving to be with family is usually a lot more different than a few summer vacations! I would question myself good and proper, good cop bad cop stylee....for a long long time, before I move and uproot my family as well.
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Darn it! This is what happens when I dont real ALL the messages! Oh man, so sorry, I completely missed the bit about the drinking and the sex addiction! *SMH* I can totally understand about you wanting to move, but hey, the issue is really a no brainer then, isnt it??? No need to even question where your marriage is, you already know it...now its just a matter of how to get out of it and move on! Yikes! My bad.
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Alcoholism is a compulsion to drink; it doesn't mean the person is piss drunk all the time, just that they are almost always drinking or feeling they need a drink (or something like that). A friend of my Dad's was an alcoholic; whenever I saw him, he had been drinking, but I don't ever remember him actually drunk. (It was sad, too, because he was one of the nicest people I've ever known, but it destroyed his marriage and his relationship with his daughter.)
I'm wondering what "putting himself about" actually means...
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I think you know the answer already I'm afraid, and are here for validation more than anything else. My wife has just returned to her country waiting for her dependents Visa to come through (approved yesterday ....yeah!!!!), and I was dredding being apart, and I called her last night to say pack your bags, you're coming back ASAP. The point is, the thought of being apart from more than a week drove me mad, and the physical absence has almost been depressing. So, ask the question of yourself, if you were apart from HIM (not the kids) for 3 months+ when really it is not 100% necessary, how would you feel about it? How does the prospect of being apart for 3 months+ feel to you? If it's relief or any other type positive type of feeling then you then have your answer. Your next problem is getting your kids there with and would suggest that you if you go, you go with kids in hand.
If he does come, and he has a playful nature (being polite) and might be tempted by the party zones of Wanchai, I would suggest that he would find his way there.
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that still leaves your children's relationship with their father to consider...
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
I think to make it easier for you, you should live with your parents in the beginning and once you can manage on your own, then move out.
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Huash, I'm a bit confused about your intentions with regards to your and your husband's kids. Are you really intending to take them away from their father? You said you would ensure you got full custody of the kids first, but I don't think that give you the right to move to the next state, much less another country, without the consent of the father.
If the law is similar to here, assuming you got full custody, if he did not agree to the move, you would have to go to court to ask for permission for the move. The court would assess whether the move was "in the best interests of the children". That's a pretty vague goal, but I imagine the farther the move, the higher the bar is set.
Since your husband, despite your own differences, has always been a good father and you are able to make a good living and pay all your bills where you are, I don't see how you can possible get over this bar. They don't consider moving to be with a new partner as a legitimate reason; presumably the same reasoning would apply to moving to be closer to your parents.
Sorry to be the fly in the ointment here, but as a father, I can't imagine not being able to watch my son grow up, to be part of his life, regardless of what may happen between my wife and I. Luckily, I have no fears of that sort of problem between us, but if it should happen and she tried to take our son back to Thailand I would fight it tooth and nail.
I hope, by the way, that your intention is not to get your husband to come with you on the assumption that you will split with him shortly after arriving in HK. You get full custody, he struggles on his own and eventually returns to the States voluntarily, to live heartbroken at the loss of his kids. I like to think the best of people, and I'm sure that you would not be so low. Anybody that would do such a thing should lose custody of their kids immediately.
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After having handful of comments/sugesstion /advice from lot of expert here, you must come to some conclusion to some extend. Do you have any?
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Yes, I would like to know, too...
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I did read your previous posts, but all you said was that you would make sure you had full legal custody and that's not enough. You are aware of that, but you didn't say so before. You did, a couple times, ignore my queries about your children's relationship with their father.
In your earlier posts, you mentioned that he may go with you or join you in HK later with the kids. Although that wasn't certain, it seemed to be a possibility. Later, however, you made it quite clear that you could not continue in this relationship. So I think it naturally gave rise to questions in my mind: what are your real intentions?
I do like to think the best of people, but there were contradictions in your posts that raised some doubts. Your ultimate goal appears to be living in HK with your kids and without your husband and you intend that to happen legally. I just couldn't see how you could bring it about both legally and ethically.
My own experience with women has actually been very good, the best by far being with my wife (only one and every intention of loving each other 'til we're 107). I have no personal experience with divorce or child custody. However, I do have a son, 2.10 years old, who I also love very much. Trying to put myself in your husband's place, and assuming he also loves his kids, I couldn't imagine ever allowing them to live so far away, to have so little contact and involvement in their lives as they grow. And yet, that's what you'd be asking him to agree to.
You have been asking here for confirmation that you're doing the right thing, but you have never appeared to have any doubts that you can make it happen. I would say there are serious doubts. Have you ever really laid out your intentions for your husband? "Listen, honey, I want to move to Hong Kong with our kids. You can come if you like, but we won't be together, so if you want to see our kids grow up, you'll have to try to struggle along there on your own. Or, you can stay here in California, so you can watch the kids from your previous marriage grow up. I'll make sure our kids write to you, and maybe you can come for a visit."
That's not very nice, but it does sound like what you want. Realistically, his only real choice is to stay in California; his children will be removed from their father's life and their father will be removed from his children's lives. You may think that's okay, but as a father, I find that abhorrent.
Please tell me I'm wrong. Please tell me you have it all worked out so the children (both his older kids and the younger) will have their father as a real physical presence in their lives as they grow. Or please tell me he's actually an ignorant cad who couldn't give a rat's a** about his kids and will be happy to see their backsides as they head onto the aeroplane.
At the very least, please tell me you never really thought much about what it will mean to your children or their father to not be part of each others' lives, but that you will think about it now and with compassion.
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Huash1
You are facing an awful dilema.
I don't think this has been specifically mentioned above.
In the present economic crisis many companies in the financial sector have frozen headcounts and some people are laying off staff.
Your husbands prospects of finding work in HK could be severely limited. This could be financial and/or career suicide at the moment. He is probably aware of this. If so he is unlikely to want to relocate to HK and start again.
With 4 kids to support he needs to consider this. And so do you.
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Huash1,
I'm new here and I normally just lurk but I felt compelled to post here after reading this entire thread. Your home is no longer your home because a home should be a safehaven. You sound frantic and sort of afraid to go to your home in California for fear of being abused. So let's use that as a base starting point, you are already homeless.
Let's deconstruct this situation. This isn't about kids. This isn't about being in HK or being in the USA. This isn't about in-laws or bigotry. This isn't even really about marriage. This is about survival. All those other factors are secondary or tertiary. I don't mean physical survival (but maybe?), but I don't know of any human being that would be able to live with themselves being raped on a regular schedule. Save yourself. Get away from there, as far and as fast as possible. There are no questions that need to be asked, no more factors more important, you must survive.
Some might ask, "What about the kids?" As a young man myself now, if I ever found out that my father was doing anything like this to my mother while I was growing up I would murder him myself. He gave up his right to be a father the moment he ignored the word "No". Despite the fact that in our age, chivalry is dead, rape is still one of the worst acts a person can commit on earth. You say he is a good father, I don't doubt it, but part of being in a functional and healthy family is being a husband and a father. You will never have a family with him since he will only be playing half his role.
Will you be able to provide an equally luxurious life for your kids? No, probably not. But how many other Hong Kong families are making due? International schools are a joke. School in general is a joke. If your child is prone to do well in school, they will excel no matter what kind of school they go to. If your child is like me and not suit for institutionalized learning, suffice to say, it doesn't matter what kind of school you send them to, the end result will be the same. Given, I have no basis or proof of anything I am saying, but nobody in this world does, so we're all playing ball on the same field here.
Some of you make it sound like moving to Hong Kong is such a poor financial decision due to the economic ramifications it may have. I would have to disagree completely and entirely there. Asia is where the money is and will be for the next while, while the US economy is declining into a depression. We watch in awe as the US financial system crumbles before our eyes, possibly taking down the rest of the world with it. Houses are smaller here of course, but if you could direct me to the study that says more space = more happiness, I would love to read it. Lastly, money is earned and spent, dignity and self-respect are priceless, this is why this is not a priority.
I think your decision is already made. Now you have to act on it. In my life, I have never seen a person change. Their behaviour? Sure. It depends on how long they can keep the act up for, but they will always revert to their old ways. Get up, get out, never look back. Everything else, figure it out once you arrive to those crossroads.
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Well.. sounds that the main idea of your first post is needing someone to support your decision to relocate back to HK near your parent and family which you expect to have their support about taking care and giving love to your kids.
Sounds you clearly think and gearing to go. Main thing you should do is finish the discussion with him about supporting the kids and keep communication between him and them (luckily in 2008 we have web cam, cell phone, email etc) and arrange time for them to meet as often as possible.
And the person you really need to deal with is yourself.. if living with him hurting you too much and he will never change back in track. Separate from him is the best thing you can do to yourself.. Move on and think best for you kids and yourself. If he really love you.. he will struggle to be with you.. he will fly to HK to be withyou without any require later and quite all his addict.
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Web cams, cell phones and email will never take the place of real contact. You can't play catch through a web cam, take them camping or to the carnival, tie their shoes, give them a hug as they go off to school or a kiss goodnight.
Younger people often see the world in simpler terms, of white and black, of the good and the righteous versus the bad and the evil, and love conquers all. With age and experience, though, you realise the world is all shades of colour, that most people are essentially good, but even the best can do bad things, that addictions are not easily quit, or they wouldn't be called addictions. And that love is a feeling; it's not a cure.
You realise that most people are trying to be good people, even if they sometimes - or often - fall short, but if they are shown generosity and compassion, they will usually try much harder.
Huash1 has every right, if she chooses, to separate from her husband. We haven't hear his side of the story, mind you. Nevertheless, however he may describe the situation, it is not one that HuaSh1 is able to accept any longer. In terms of her relationship with him, that is all that matters.
Despite what someone said earlier, his behaviour toward her in no way either absolves him of responsibility for his kids nor does it abrogate his rights as their father. More importantly, though, it does nothing to change his feelings, his hopes and dreams, his love for them, nor theirs for him.
It is a terrible thing when a father (or mother) abandons their children. I find the idea of children being taken from a beloved parent to be equally terrible.
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sicn
16 yrs ago
If you could have what you want from your marrieage, what would it be? If your husband could have what he wants from your marriage, what would it be? Do you and/or your husband have any common plans and dreams for the future?
What vision do you have for yourself 10 years from now? 20 years from now? Is your husband in your dream of the future? Whatever dream you have for 10 or 20 years from now you need to map it out and get onto that road and not be side tracked. Every body has the right to be happy. You and your husband have a right to be happy along with your kids.
Look ahead to where you want to go in the long term and get onto that road. If your dream is of being somebody in Hong Kong then get going. If your dream is to save your marriage then get going. I don't believe that outsiders can help you through the details of your relational dilemma. But you can be sure that your real problem is time. Time is everybody's problem. You will run out of time. Don't waste your life being a victim or worrying about what has happened. Look into the future at what you want to happen and get onto that road to make it happen.
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hualaan,
I agree and disagree with various portions of your post.
In regards to your first point, regarding physical proximity and how there is no substitute, I couldn't agree more. Physical distance is an insurmountable mountain in any type of relationship, be it platonic, romantic, familial etc. There is no way to replace it, and no substitute for it. But, are they worth more to a child than growing up in a household where your father rapes your mother? I'm going to have to venture and say no.
Secondly, about young people, that's a generalization I can't entirely agree on. To be blunt, you're saying that we're naive. I don't see why having a good set of morals and strong ideals automatically makes me oblivious to 'reality'. Conversely, I don't see why being complacent and over-tolerant of abusive and generally unacceptable actions makes one 'experienced'. That's a common misconception that 'older' people have. They think they've grown wise, when in fact I argue they've just gotten too lazy to deal with a situation head on. Perhaps they don't have the option to leave (too old to find a new companion, too ugly, trapped by having no exterior support system etc.) Lastly, I agree, love is not enough. Which is why in this case, no amount of love, whether it be familial or spousal can save this marriage. Love is never enough.
I disagree with your point where people become better. I stand by my point that people never change permanently. It really depends how many weeks, months or years go past before they fall off the wagon again. To put it succinctly, people can change behaviour temporarily, but they cannot change character permanently.
I think rape actually does absolve a person of all their rights to being a father. I don't have any real data, but I would imagine if this goes to court and rape is brought up, I doubt a father would get any custody rights, period. So legally, it may. In reality? I say that it does too. It is pretty much the most heinous act of disrespect you can show anyone in this world. I know it happens everyday, I also don't think that should make it any easier to accept.
I agree that it's a terrible thing when a house is broken. But, it's already a broken home. Whether they spend weekends or whatever at their father's house or whatever the arrangement, the end result is the same. There's no way to rectify this last fact in this case unfortunately, so I've already taken it as absolute and irrelevant.
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Elsdon:
She has already decided that the marriage must end; that's undisputed. The question is whether she takes her kids to live halfway around the world, or whether she stays in California.
"a good set of morals" what do you define as "good"? If your morals are different from others, are you right and everybody else is wrong?
"being complacent and over-tolerant of abusive and generally unacceptable actions makes one 'experienced'" Don't be complacent - I never said nor implied such a thing - but look deeper than merely saying "that's bad and anybody that does it is a bad, evil person". Looking deeper isn't laziness, in fact it takes much more energy and resolve.
We'll have to agree to disagree whether or not people can become better.
Does rape absolve his rights as a father? I don't think so, not morally, unless it was committed against the children. Huash1 has already said "yes, my husband is in his early 40s and he is a good man and a good father" and also "My husband is not a bad man. He's a great father to all of his kids. This is how I look at it, a bad husband does not equate with a bad person. In my view, he's a good man with evil habits".
For that matter, we haven't heard his side of the story and I do believe in a person's right to defend themselves.
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huash1-
i've been following the entire thread. my current situation is very similar - i've got 2 kids, marriage was shakey, sold our house and left the states. this is our 2nd round of HK. and i'm still in turmoil.
if you'll like to email me i'll share some of my opinions and experiences.
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Huash1: I don't have a strong opinion against you, but I do, as a father, have a strong opinion against the idea that "mother trumps father". That is outdated, outlandish and a truly awful thing to believe.
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hualaan,
I agree that morals are subjective due to the social climate you are submerged in. But, to bring that in context, I don't think rape is acceptable anywhere in the world that I've seen so that line of thinking is moot. Unless, you're a rapist? :D To put it bluntly, you should stop trying to generalize this scenario because she's given so much information already.
You never implied complacency, I did. You call it compromise, I call it complacency. Sure sitting around and being abused takes quite a bit of energy and resolve, but I think picking up your stuff and leaving everything you hold dear behind takes a fair bit more. Moreover, it's not like this is a complex situation to understand: Person A wants sex, person B doesn't. Person A rapes person B. You can try to speculate as much as you want, but that's just a tool humans use to mentally handicap themselves and permit them to accept or rationalize the situation. Oh, person B was teasing person A. Oh, person B used to have sex all the time but doesn't want it anymore. Oh, person B likes to play hard to get but this time person A misunderstood. All the above are some examples of ways that the human mind softens the blow to your psyche to get over something like that.
I think you fail to realize the degree of damage rape has on people. Huash1 of course isn't going to come on here and be like 'my husband is the worst' blah blah blah. If she could ever admit that to herself, what kind of person does that make her for marrying him. Her opinion is biased, you have to read between the lines. It is much like the same mentality I posted above. The rationalization process is what allows humans to endure times of extreme strife.
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huash1, my email is jewls388@yahoo.com
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
So glad a decision is made. It should be a relief for you under such a difficult environment. Best wishes to your future with the children.
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Huash1
This was really obvious..I think now you can relieve yourself and go to HK where you will be cared and loved.A new fresh start in your life is in the corner ..It won't be easy but at least you won't be intrigued by this unhappy marriage.I wish you good luck and make sure that the Kids get the love they need from both of you..
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Moral = married to same race and culture?
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I've read your entire thread & feel everyones opinion has merit because it has enabled you to look at every avenue possible before making your final decision. You have been trying to deal with your personal problems with your partner since marriage & seeking counselling for the past year without much success & if you continued in this relationship (?marriage) your self esteem would be even lower. I think you are a much stronger person than you ever knew possible. This decision has not been made in haste & without personal sacrifice you are losing a friend, a husband & a lover (though I find it hard to refer to him as this). I sincerly hope, your ex-husband can still remain part of your childrens lives but I think he needs more intensive help then just marriage counselling, he needs longterm support & sex addicts anonymous to realise & understand what he was doing is not acceptable then finally appreciate why you had to leave him. You may in the future be his best support.
Just a query why did his first wife & he separate? The kids ages seem similar time frame for separation. You may have a friend you never had previously if you have both survived this.
If you do end up here in HK I wish you and your family only the best for the future as everyone deserves to be happy & surrounded by those who truly love, care & support them. Only then can you grow inside again.
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