Disgraceful attitude of HK employers of Overseas Helper's association chairman

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=134185&sid=39737163&con_type=1


Excerpt taken from the standard today.

Joseph Law Kwan-din, chairman of the Hong Kong Employers of Overseas Domestic Helpers Association, claimed it was common for maids to short- change their employers - although the association had not received any complaint or inquiry from an employer. What annoys employers more is stealing things from the home, he added.


Law advised employers to buy groceries themselves or ask their maids to shop at supermarkets and produce receipts.


What is disgraceful about this is the way it is portrayed as 'normal'. Moreover the chairman suggests that employers do their own shopping or ask the maid to only shop at supermarkets! This is a kin to the manager of a bank being told to count ALL the money and do ALL the transactions because some of his employees steal. Its a ridiculous attitude. How about creating a method by which maids who steal petty amounts (not so petty wen you think that she was reaming 30% of the grocery bill in that one instant) can be punished/ have a record and if it occurs more than once than they should lose their ability to work in HK again?

I know a helper who was fired because she bought some fish at the market that was much higher in cost than the employer expected based on previous purchases. The employer felt the helper was "padding her pocketbook" at the employer's expense, therefore lost trust in her (rather than confirming to rise on costs of food) and fired her.

hkwatcher are you sure that that is the case? I'm only asking becasue to replace a helper costs $$$$$$ (employement agency fees, flights, ect etc) so its unlikely to occur over a one time fish purchase. It may have been a constellation of problems.


My first helper in HK was padding her own pocket, verified by me at the market and by our other helper who had followed her to the shops and seen her do it (when I confronted the non thieving helper). Even to the day she left she insisted that she was no thief! She was fired from her next 2 jobs because of theft but each time she bagged the employers (I know because my current helper and her go to the same church). I'm not saying that is the case with your friend but it just doesn't make sense that she would be fired over a fish or one gorcery shopping expedition.


Moreover the article seems to suggest that this is a widespread practice and unless you want to go and do your own shopping then you'd better get used to it!

I read the article yesterday and the letter form the editor in the HK Standard today. She said that the sum was so small and should have been settled between the employer and helper. It reminded me of a Sri Lankan helper I was asked to bail out of the nick. She had been charged with stealing HK$5! It went to court! It took two days before she was finally let off. Two days!! I got my $500 back in the end! I'm afraid some employers are very petty!

My wife is an x helper. When I sit and listen to her friends stories, I try my best to give the employer the benefit of the doubt. But really, I am running out of excuses! I could write a book! the latest one is, an employer monitored my friends time she spent at the market and she made a note of how long she spent every day. When it came to finish the contract she added up the time and told her she had one week of her annual leave already. So she didn't pay her! The por por found an old shoe cupboard in the lap sap, she got her to carry it home, when she was carrying it home, she dropped it and damaged it, the employer charged $300! It was taken from the rubbish!! She got sick, went to the doctor, paid for it herself. The employer took the receipt and claimed the insurance, only the employer kept the money, said it was hers because she paid the premium!


Just a few examples of what I hear when talking with my friends.

Hugie, did your sri lankan frined steal the $5? Sometimes, the 5 or 15 dollars is just the tip of the iceberg and the truth is the help have been stealing for donkeys years. My husband had a local helper when he was growing up and she was creaming the books royally to the tune of around 15-20% but because she was good at her job and my in laws pretty lax with things in the house she got away with it. They 'punished her' by not giving her a pay rise. years later they are still on friendly terms despite the fact they think she stole somewhere in the region os 70-100K over a 15 year period. I don't think it is petty to prosecute over $5 or indeed $15 if it is something that is recurrent. The law just needs to be revised to have a measn of dealing with these cases rather than going all the way to court.


In terms of the examples you have given, I agree it totally ridiculous behaviour on the part of the employer. I would have quit over the cupboard, and put up a fight over the 1 week's less in wages.

lagrue

Oh yes I am sure. It seems that trust is not easily earned and very easily broken! Of course there are those who are not trustworthy for sure. But, in fact most are trustworthy.

Like Hugie, I've got stories too of employers who short pay their helpers, refuse to pay for food and get upset when they can't keep a helper for a full length of contract.

Or have you heard of employers expecting their helpers to serve 'steak' when they only give a shopping money equivallent to the price of one piece of small fish?

Then here comes an epmloyer who can not give enough money and ask the helper to cover up since the husband is not in town, or saying she has forgotten to give?

I agree with hkwatcher.

Also, Imagine a helper who spends $775.0 food allowance. Divided by 26 working days equals to 29.81 divide again with 3meals a day.That gives her $9.92 dollars per meal. how can they survive?!!!

If I am to compile or document horrible stories of how helpers being treated in HK, Gosh, It would be damn big a book.

Of course, many employers treat their helpers with dignity and have a measure of trust on them, that too is commendable..

hkwatcher and ledger1228 I too agree that there are some really terrible employers out there. I've never known anyone to underpay their helper (but geez they wouldn't admit it to me I guess because it would make them look bad) but I've seen the OUTRAGEOUS way some heckle and dress down their helpers. Calling them all sorts of horrible names and showing a horrible side of themselves, only to turn back to me and act all posh again....... Employers who brag about 'having it all' and being proud of having the helper put the toothpaste on their toothbrush (who does THAT!!!!!)


But in the same breath I have known some truly horrible helpers that have taken advantage of good employers (stolen, texted on the phone the whole time during a playgroup class, goes AWOL for a couple of hours when they are suppose to quickly nip into the shops for some groceries) who were a bit wet behind the ears when it came to the hiring and managing of domestic help.


But although there are bad employers and helpers alike I suspect that the majority of both are ok and a few are stellar. But my OP is that it appears that stealing petty amounts of money (not so petty when you consider it is 30% of the original amount) seems to be cool and common here, whereas it's not cool with me....

@ lagrue

I totally agree with your last paragraph.

I strongly believe that there is no such thing as justified theft, not even as 50cents. I have 5 fingers on one hand. Different sizes but are still fingers. What's the fifference of stealing petty amount to a large sum of money? Nothing. Still stealing.


Anyway, commend good helpers and hope you dont get/hire the bad ones..

Cheers!

No wonder the maid in the article had a smile on her face when leaving court, effectively they have said she is free to carry on being a thief. No matter how small the amount of money/property stolen is, if it is take dishonestly it is theft.

I think at least a record should be kept of the incident, and the maid warned if this happens again, she will be deported and never allowed to work in HK again.

@ Lagrue. no she didn't, it turned out that the wife of the employer could have given her the money. The judge believed her to be a good honest witness.

And just to say that I agree with you, stealing is wrong, $1 or a million. What I think is petty, is the fact it went to court. The employer should have dealt with it. How much public money was spent on the case??

Seriously? Over 15HKD, these guys fought I court? Or 50 cents? So in this city, nicking a pen from the office is a serious crime. Doesn't HK have better ways to spend their overflowing public money in something better like, building more public housings or get new environmentally friendly taxis and buses?


I would be interested in how much the employer's total annual revenue is. Theft or not theft, I don't know and cannot judge but, i just cannot stop being amazed at how the ones that are ok doing cannot sacrifice some amounts as "necessary costs." We know that the taxi driver is nicking 50 cents. Is it really going to hurt that he rounds up the digits? The HK taxi fare is already cheap compared to anywhere in the world. Tokyo, you have to start from 75HKD!

Missing 15HKD of pork? Seriously? Couldn't you discuss it at home?


If this employer's household was the one where the tai tai goes to mani and pedi's every other day and she goes to lunch to the club with her friends every so often, I think these people need to wake up.


Or is it the culture of this city?

Xshoequeen - its irrelevant if the tai tai goes to manis and pedis every day - if you think that gives one of your staff to pilfer from you then I don't have much to say, we obviously have different philosophies.


ALso I'm not sure you can equate nicking a pen from the office to taking 30% of what's in the till. Sure they should have sorted out themselves or there should have been some other mechanism to ensure that if this gilr was caught again STEALING - because let's call it what it is - STEALING, then she should be barred from working in HK.

Xshoequeen

This family eats with $50 pork, reducing the amount by $15 is a huge difference

I can tell you in that house there is not Tai tai going for manis and pedis

And regardless of the amount stealing is stealing.

Can you tell us where you draw the line?

I knew I was going to get these q's! Sorry if I was naive enough not to understand the background!


Taitai thing, it was the most convenient example as I do know more than 5 families, including expats that the ma'am leaves everything to the helper and still scrutinizes the helper and tries to cut back on expenses. I just thought that it could be THAT possibility. where the wife could spend a helper's minimum wage per day, easily more than 15k on a 1 year old child's birthday, in what shoes can you blame the sole housekeeper of the house? You as the Madame of the house is setting a really loose morale example, how can you possibly expect someone who looks to you as their boss maintain respect in you?



Now the theft line, in a situation where you leave everything to the helper, I do not know. I know for a fact that our helper buys food with our money independent from her salary which is way above double the minimum wage. I put it in necessary costs as I know that in general, I am underpaying her, for the same labour elsewhere. When she goes overboard, I just simply tell her, that while she can nick here and there, I would appreciate it if she can refrain from big spending as I do have a weekly budget. Trust me, we are not a millionaire, a young family struggling in rich land ( i do my nails by myself BTW) trying to build their portfolio unsuccessfully, but, still, we are trying to factor the ugly truth that nowhere else in the world, we can have this much help with this amount, thus, swallow the bits and pieces as necessity cost. We have hired help back home and it has really killed us, we worked for hiring help, thus, I just feel in general, that HK is under appreciating the good value they are getting. Simple as that!

And before anyone shoots us, comparing world standard to labour cost in HK is the exact reason why we never save money here, my husband and I fully agree with you. But, we feel that as a person we need to do this and we like it that way and we are not judging anyone else as they have their own lives!!!

Ok, maybe I misread the original title of disgraceful attitude.


If my own children were to take something from his or her friend, it would result to immediate action as it is not acceptable. I thought people were talking here about the helper / employer relationship and that some are really under brutal conditions.



That's all, my wrong.

To be fair, just like the others mentioned, stealing is still stealing, whether it's a penny or a million.


What I would add here is that since the helpers spend a lot more time looking after the kids while their parents working hard everyday, what if the kids saw the helpers nicking money and copying her act. I know it's the parents responsibility to teach their kids, but we put a lot of trust to these helpers too, we treat the helpers as a member of the family and we expect they behave well.

Xshoequeen, I'm not sure why you are paying your helper double the minimum

most of the people I know who pay their helpers more fall into 3 categories

a) helper is a superstar

b) helper is illegally living out

c) helper can drive

The fact that your helper regularly pilfers food/money from you probably would not fit most people's description of a superstart employee, so one is left with b) and c)

If it is c) then you are underpaying her ++++ as most domestic helper drivers who live in make more than that

If it is b) then you will have NO LEG to stand on should she start to steal increasingly large amounts, as what you are doing is illegal and moreover you've been condoning her behaviour.

Hi Lagrue, I didnt know I was helping crime, sorry for that.


BTW, just to let you know, our helper is cat.A. We met her through word of mouth and has been with us for 5 years.


I have bought up this issue about her treating herself to M&M's and Orangina with my friends but, they have told me, it is nothing compared to what she gives us. I am being utterly ungrateful and missing such a big picture. We should take it as a warning sign that we are not giving her enough "incentive treats," ie. the coffee or beer that the boss buys to keep the team sprit up. If we fire her, they will be more than happy to take her in as it is not even "theft." Has she attempted to steal any of our things? - no, has she signed a loan -no, has she stolen from a shop, no. Did she even try to damage anything? - when she breaks something, she will pay us back volunteerly.


I feel that "nick" is the right word and not "theft" Maybe, "nick" is not even the right word, I will rephrase it, " treat herself by herself." and it's even our money and we are not giving any harm to the public. She has not escalated and this is our helper management style.


I have even spoken to her about your post tonight. She was utterly upset that she was considered a theft and apologized to me that it has fired on me as a partner in crime.


We as employers and she as employee have our own unspoken agreement and it was fine like that.


Anyway, everyone here is saying that my post is irrelavant, and I dont think people are understanding my point but, heyho, misunderstood where the thread was going so wrong posting!!


So sorry about messing up your thread!!



Xshoequeen xo

Xshoequeen I am not trying to tell you how to manage your employee, and if it works for you then who is to say - but I think the more global discussion is about whether helping yourself to someone else's money/food/things without permission is stealing and I think the majority would say that it is.


I think your friends and you are right in a way - that for good employees if we can then we should be generous because it does build team spirit. And yes the wage for helpers is ridiculous. In my case I have a helper who makes more than double the minimum wage (she has been with me for around 5 years now too) because she is a superstar (able to do stuff like practice piano with my little one because she can read sheet music and can play - crazy stuff like that). She has NEVER EVER helped herself to my money/things ect and I suggested to her a while back that she should buy treats for herself with our grocery money as she eats whatever she wants (bought when she shops for us) but she never did (because I suspect she didn't want to overstep the mark), so now I have given her a few hundred a month for her own discretionary snack attacks, which she spends and enjoys and never goes beyond. win & win. Just a suggestion.


I agree with cara that integrity in a helper is of the UTMOST importance, more important than being a good cook, good at domestic chores. having a special skill set

OMG! Are you guys seriously bickering over $5HKD? Is this the pettiest of cities in the world or what? While I'm certainly not an advocate of thieving, come on people. Obviously the judge let the helper off the hook. Apparently he/she didn't see that a crime was committed. Of course the helper came out smiling. I would too if my ultra petty boss just accused me unjustly of the most ridiculous thing anyone could ever accuse someone of and then the accusation was dismissed. That boss was demonstrating the kind of absurd behavior children exhibit. The helper was probably just happy that someone finally defended her against such a ridiculous claim when she expected to lose.


Think about it, guys. You can't buy a bag of chips for $5 in Hong Kong. Perhaps someone could take a minibus with $5, but then the employer should be paying for that anyway if it's part of the job to go back and forth to the market, etc. The idea that anyone would consider it stealing to keep $5 change is too much regardless of whether or not she should have given it back. If it was me, I would reasonably think that I could use that $5 for my next minibus trip so I wouldn't have to ask the employer for the money again next time. This way I avoid bothering my boss and there is less trouble. It's a reasonable way to think.


And how many employers cheat their helpers on their salaries? I just met a girl 2 weeks ago who finished her contract and was only given HALF of her airfare money to return to her country. The helper didn't realize the problem until she got to the airport because the employer thrust the airplane ticket in her face and shoved her out the door before she could think about what was happening. It never occurred to her that the ticket was only half of the distance to return to her home town. She had to spend her own money for the connecting flight. How is this not STEALING from the helper's salary? That's a lot more than $5 but yet helpers must just endure. Nobody comes to their side to aid them against these crimes. Many of you are ready to string the helper up and hang her to her death for $5 which the judge clearly dismissed. But when it comes to real crimes of the locals against the foreign workers with large sums of money, where is the justice? Which ones of you will stand by the helper to defend them? Or are you just too busy only standing up for each other by reinforcing how bad the little SE Asians are in your own minds? Would any of you honestly act this way to your friends or your own children? Perhaps your husbands or wives? Get real. This is truly petty and brings shame on the people of Hong Kong.


FYI, when you bring someone into your home to live and take care of you, they become a part of your family. You take care of your family. Helpers are not pets or slaves and shouldn't be treated as such. It is expected that they eat your food at the table with you, they use your water, electricity, a room to sleep and have private time and other things that all cost money. There are many things that are shared with the family and in many ways the helper helps you save money as well by using coupons or membership cards at the store for a discount. Or they may shop the cheapest prices at the local market to find the best deals for you as their employer. What if the helper drops $5 on the ground and doesn't realize it? What if YOU drop $5 on the ground and blame the helper?


Bottom line is, STOP BEING SO STINKING PETTY. WE ARE NOT CHILDREN HERE.

It's about the principal of the point Justice4all....oh and I have a helper, she is treated very well and we have a good relationship but she is not family - I personally prefer to keep the relationship on an employer-employee basis and my helper is done with this too.

Just to clarify guys, the maid was charged for stealing 5 dollars because she stole on countless occasions before, but this was the only time the employer had hard evidence to charge her!! Read the details on Chinese magazine!